So how do I throw my weight behind my country?

Start from a foundation of not making it any worse (don’t drop rubbish etc).

Build from there in any number of ways:

Run for local office
Volunteer for local charities / initiatives
Start a local community group for people to lend their time & skills
Help an elderly neighbour
Challenge prejudice when you hear it
If you see someone in trouble, take the time to check they’re OK

Many of us are under real time or financial pressure and are limited as to how or what we can contribute and may have trouble hanging onto a sense of perspective, but just try the best you can.

Quite right…politics is shit, but the sun is shining, our countryside is wonderful, our children are shining beacons of hope and we are alive and healthy. Enjoy what you have and accentuate the positives……you’re going to be a long time dead![list]

indeed we are very lucky in some respects

and while politics isnt the be all and end all, The tone of the ‘debate’ around Brexit and the seemingly boundless levels of ignorance on display (shouty brexiter woman on QT last night?) leaves me worrying a lot about the country my children will grow up in

The tone of the ‘debate’ around Brexit and the seemingly boundless levels of ignorance on display

This is what worries me, when i go into my local town and see the pub has a massive “Support UKIP” banner on the front, when i open Facebook and see the constant Britain First and EDL posts from my (thankfully distant) relatives in Essex (along with the fashion blog there 12 and 14 girls write about going for spray tans etc), when i get on my bike in the rural area i live in at 6am and see the Eastern European guys and gals arriving by the minibus load to start work picking the “English Asparagus and English Strawberries” for a 12 hour day at minimum wage and yet they can’t go for a beer in the pub after out of fear and when i take a look at the front page of the newspapers in the rack at the shop, it is enough to take the shine off any day.

Challenge prejudice when you hear it

Just a little, tiny bit easier said than done…

What we lack isn’t money, or brains, or prospects- it’s optimism. I’m working at graduations this week, for a generation that since primary school have been surrounded by negativity and reducing prospects and options. Work longer, get paid less, take longer/be less likely that you own your own home, have more debt, cut everything, sell everything, a country like a worn out Brighton hotel that still thinks it’s top end but hasn’t redecorated for a decade because it’s expensive.

After the war, the country had been bombed full of holes, a huge slice of a generation was lost or traumatised, we were hugely in debt- so we had homes fit for heroes, we created the NHS. Things were shit but people felt they were moving forward and making a better future. Create the UN, create the EU, stop it happening again. Unprecedented social mobility. Welcome (sort of) mass immigration.

After the financial crisis- by any sane measure, a trivial thing compared to a world war- we slashed at everything we could, told everyone to expect less, spent all the effort on recreating the situation that made the financial crisis happen and then told the kids they’ll be paying for it til they die. We can’t afford the NHS, we can’t afford pay rises, you can’t afford a house, everything is owned by someone else and it’s morally wrong for you to want what they have. More, better capitalism. Close the doors. Resent that we’re no longer that big a deal but still complain when people want to come here. Where’s the optimism, the dream in that? The big idea was to try and get back to where we were, back to that amazing time and just ignore that it failed, not to go somewhere better. Like 2007 was the absolute pinnacle of human existance. You can put up with a lot of shit as long as there’s the prospect of making it better- for you, for your kids. People sneer at optimism now. Imagine if you tried to make the NHS with today’s attitudes? “Bloody lefties” “DIY surgery was good enough for us- snowflakes, wanting something better” “Utopian”.

Snowflakes! An insult invented by comfortable middle aged people to throw at young people who only really want the same things, the same opportunities. Say what you like about my parents’ generation, they never called me a snowflake, they said get out there, make it happen.

After the war, the country had been bombed full of holes, a huge slice of a generation was lost or traumatised, we were hugely in debt- so we had homes fit for heroes, we created the NHS. Things were shit but people felt they were moving forward and making a better future. Create the UN, create the EU, stop it happening again. Unprecedented social mobility. Welcome (sort of) mass immigration.

I think that what we had then was a sense of having coming through a horrific period and the country all pulling together knowing it would be tough.

Now we seem to have people pulling in different directions depending on what they want, we have become selfish in many ways.

What we lack isn’t money, or brains, or prospects- it’s optimism

+1

Just a little, tiny bit easier said than done…

Agreed, but then why should it be easy?

You do not need to risk your life to challenge prejudice, nor would I suggest that if that were the situation that anyone would be a coward for not doing so. There are many times I have risked (and broken) friendships by challenging prejudice, but I’ve also built friendships and had interesting dialogues as a result.

And we all have our prejudices, they make life simpler, but some are more insidious than others and need to be challenged

Considering the financial crash and the aftermath, with the 1929 crash and the aftermath, things aren’t so bad. End of the day despite its ups and downs this country is still pretty decent.

On safety as well as the government the construction industry also needs a hard look at itself. Other industries have got a lot better a H&S over the years, the construction industry needs to do more.

Finally I’m not sure social media is helping. Yes it can be a really good thing, but it also has a lot of potential downsides which need to be addressed.

Northwind

In some respects the UK is great. Scientific research and universities generally, it punches well above its weight. Very much a world leader in my field and many others. Only the USA is more influential, and that’s basically cos it’s 4-5 times larger.

Of course the brexit process is putting severe pressure on this, but it remains true so far.

Sick to death of the fashion to slag off the UK on STW.
If it’s that bad then perhaps the protagonists could grow a pair and leave.
As I said to an acquaintance after her fourth return to Blighty; nobody invited you and no one has asked you to stay.
The grass is always greener.

Caveat for the apologists: All countries I’ve experienced have pros and cons, including the UK.
Thought I’d best get that in before some tedious self-aggrandizing bore jumps in and announces to the world how clever they are by the use of the word “jingoism”.

Maybe that’s the alcohol wearing off, or maybe it’s that as the product of immigrants I have a better realization of the opportunities this country has to offer. 💡

Granted, the weather is shite mind. 🙂

Sadly I can see Scud’s perspective more clearly than anyone else’s and i hate that. I’ve always seen myself as patriotic, not in a union jack wearing chest thumping sort or way but more in my appreciation of the natural form of the land and my faith that the people of Britain were at their core genuinely decent.

I still see decency, following the bombing in Manchester, the two van attacks in London and the tower block fire the response of people was exactly what I’d hoped for. But I’ve realised that every nation on earth has beauty in its landscape and people coming together and acting out of decency and compassion is nothing to do with their nationality that’s just good people.

I dont necessarily think that things would be better somewhere else but I don’t think it would be any worse either and that’s the gist of my realisation we’re not special and we need to stop acting as though we are. At this stage in our story we are just another small country that’s been punching above it’s weight for some time and needs to reassess it’s place in the world. We need to lose our national arrogance to restore out national pride.

Do I think things will get better? If we are incredibly fortunate I think things might get no worse but I suspect we’ll not be that lucky. People will continue to be squeezed making their lives harder and causing them to look for simple reasons and people to blame and the press and unscrupulous politicians will be only too happy to supply a bogeyman to fit the bill.

So the VW emmisons standards showed us the EU emissions test are rubbish and more frightening is that the US emissions standards are more stringent than the EUs!!! That can’t be, the US have petrol guzzling cars. We have always been taught the US pollute loads and their cars are horrendous.

Then we get the Air Quality scandal where the EU has to take our government to court to force them to abide by rules they signed up for that are designed to ensure our air is clean. Oh and they think 30,000 people die from air pollution each year. 30,000!!!!! Why is this not the biggest ever scandal to hit this country. Why are the government not protecting the people. We slag off China for air pollution and then do bugger all ourselves.
For starters the EU and the US have different testing criteria, the EU tests for CO2, the stuff that is supposed to contribute to global warming, the process that the US denies actually exists, and the US tests for CO, NOx, HCHO and particulates.
The air quality in the U.K. Is vastly better quality than China, and other places in the Far East where burning of huge tracts of forest to allow the growing of oil palms contributes to traffic pollution.
The hysterical headlines in the Mail about particulates directly causing the deaths of 30,000 people don’t help, all internal combustion engines produce a variety of microscopic particulates, petrol and diesel, the huge engines used in commercial shipping cause as much as most of the world’s cars and trucks, as they burn bunker oil, a thick tar-like substance, although I understand they’re cleaning up their act now.
As far as general air quality failing EU standards is concerned, perhaps you haven’t noticed occasions during hot spells when air quality warnings have been given out, due to smog from European heavy industries in France and Germany coming across the channel, then there’s the situation in Paris where the pollution is so bad people are forced to only drive cars on alternative days according to their car registration.
Do the words ‘pot’ and ‘kettle’ ring any bells?

real time map of global air quality

http://aqicn.org/map/europe/#@g/8.371/-76.9922/2z

As far as general air quality failing EU standards is concerned, perhaps you haven’t noticed occasions during hot spells when air quality warnings have been given out, due to smog from European heavy industries in France and Germany coming across the channel, then there’s the situation in Paris where the pollution is so bad people are forced to only drive cars on alternative days according to their car registration.
Do the words ‘pot’ and ‘kettle’ ring any bells?

the point is its the UK (and french eg alternate car days & german) government that has been forced by the EU to improve its air quality, often via the courts

yes smog from other countries can be a big factor but roadside NO2 levels on Oxford Street have much more to do with diesel buses & taxis than german heavy industry!

Sadly I can see Scud’s perspective more clearly than anyone else’s and i hate that. I’ve always seen myself as patriotic, not in a union jack wearing chest thumping sort or way but more in my appreciation of the natural form of the land and my faith that the people of Britain were at their core genuinely decent.

I’m not the most eloquent of people and i know i sound miserable, there is a great deal to be thankful of in this country, we have some stunning scenery and beautiful countryside, the NHS despite it’s faults is fantastic, we have a very varied population (i have always loved regional accents and attitudes) and most importantly, i think the best beer…

My issue isn’t the UK as a place, it is that we seem be determind to bugger it all up by being shortsighted and selfish, not everyone, but a growing section from the politicians down. This whole Brexit farce, 99% of people know it is the wrong decision, but they will plough through with it just so they don’t lose face to their peers and to remain in power, bugger what is actually best for us as a country and for the people here.

One issue is IMO first past the post, the idea that a government can have a commanding mandate on 33% of the vote which in turn is about 25% of the voters. There is no need to get to a concensus about what is the best for the UK. Just what will keep enough voters on side.

Lots of great posts in this thread!!!

I always think half the issue is, no-one seems to know what the criteria is to make the country great again.

to me, northwinds post is about right. being the richest nation isn’t important.

One issue is IMO first past the post, the idea that a government can have a commanding mandate on 33% of the vote which in turn is about 25% of the voters. There is no need to get to a concensus about what is the best for the UK. Just what will keep enough voters on side.

For the sake of accuracy/pedantry, the Conservative party took 42% of the vote (up from previous election) on a turn-out of 68% of the electorate, which translates to 28.5% (very close to your estimate).

BUT….

If people cannot be bothered to vote then arguably they are allowing any government to do what the hell they like – 32% of the electorate cannot even be arsed to get down to a polling station.

Sadly we blew the chance to have a more representative voting system a couple of years ago.

Where do those 32% live? If you’re in a safe seat I can see why you wouldn’t bother to vote.

+1 Northwind, well said sir.

I live in a safe seat, I voted, and not for the winner.

It may not be much but it’s the only voice you have in our election.

In the last two elections it is claimed that the difference between the Tories winning a majority or failing to was determined by less than 1000 votes and safe seats don’t always stay safe.

Point of order: UK isn’t a small country either geographically, demographically or economically. Luxembourg is a small country. We’re not. We’re about middling, but quite high up in econmomic terms as are many developed European countries so not that unusual.

I think that most people are fundamentally pretty decent. Our biggest problem is that we have had governments for years who are trying to do everything on the cheap and have ended up totally **** the country over. Our second biggest problem is the poisonous media run by a small selection of arseholes. They have a lot to answer for.

Solve those two issues and we’ll be back on our way.

Our second biggest problem is the poisonous media run by a small selection of arseholes

Other than your use of the word “second”, I couldn’t agree more.

molgrips – Member
…Our second biggest problem is the poisonous media run by a small selection of arseholes. They have a lot to answer for.

I think that’s our biggest problem.

In previous generations the media was controlled by people who lived here and had a vested interest in the country.

I think a possible answer is to disallow political comment by any foreign owned or controlled mass media.

I feel that if we had the education we deserve, we wouldn’t be so easily fooled by the media and their advantage would evaporate.

On a similar subject – seems like many rational leave voters are beginning to realise that they were duped, that “project fear” might’ve had a point after all. If this is the case, and people are prepared to change their minds, this will make me feel a little better about the place.

Ok so this is published by a remain paper, but it’s written by a leaver and shows some decent thought.

I think much of the young vote in the election was in response to the old folk pissing up their backs whilst telling them its raining.

No money for education, no money for health, no money for housing, no money for social care but they can see all these people who have benefitted from the state with fat pensions and gizzillions in house equity.

Thats because they want hope!!

However I absolutely reserve the right to moan like **** about injustices, stupid politicians or anything else including idiotic referendums or society thats leaves so many people behind.
There are two different things.

make the country great again.

ruh roh….
😉

Just want to echo the positive sentiment towards Northwind’s assessment. Nailed it imho.

Sounds shit. You should come to Scotland. It’s nice here. We don’t have UKIP for example.

Sounds shit. You should come to Scotland. It’s nice here. We don’t have UKIP for example.

It is. Seriously thinking about it. I know. I know.

One thing though. can you make it a bit warmer for me?

Did anyone else read Northwinds post in the style of the intro to Trainspotting?

I still dream of the time when people of this great land were so moved by an advert for an American baked bean manufacturer, they rushed out, weeping and overcome in their hundreds of thousands, into the ungodly glow of a Woolworths and handed over money for a compact disc of Ladysmith Black Mambazo propelling an unknown collection of traditional African musicians into a spotlight they didn’t ask for.

We have always been feckless shits.

I feel that if we had the education we deserve, we wouldn’t be so easily fooled by the media and their advantage would evaporate.

An education that taught every child how to think, rather than how to work would help IMO.

An education that taught every child how to think, rather than how to work would help IMO.

Totally this. Then people might not take questionable biased news paper headlines as fact as they did in the referendum.

We’re breeding a nation of idiots, and that’s not a good long term strategy for economic growth.

There are plenty of old idiots about – it’s certainly not restricted to youth.