• This topic has 235 replies, 57 voices, and was last updated 7 years ago by grum.
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  • Are some people too 'anti' for their own good?
  • grum
    Member

    And? My local Sainsbury’s sells me a sandwich, a bag of crisps and and apple juice pretty much every day. I’m sure they’d like me to carry on. I’m sure my local pub would be absolutely delighted if I ate there every day. What’s the difference?

    1) The fact that eating that from Sainsbury’s every day probably wouldn’t kill you/make you obese?
    2) The fact that your local pub doesn’t spend millions on advertising it’s unhealthy products to your kids?

    So why is it that we are facing an obesity crisis then? Has peoples’ fundamental nature just changed in the last few decades to become much, much greedier and lazier, for no apparent reason?

    Or is there perhaps some correlation with the massive rise in consumption of low-quality industrialised food and the vast amounts of money spent on marketing it? Hmmmm I wonder.

    It makes no difference. The moral truth is that you still have a choice.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    McDonalds don’t want people eating it as an occasional treat, they would have kids eat it for every meal every day if they could.

    Are you familiar with the concept of capitalism? Name me a business that wouldn’t?

    consumers increasingly choose products perceived to be cheaper and more “filling”

    So that is more to do with poor education on nutritional matters. As for the “too lazy to cook”, I expect that is the case for many, but if we are talking about those who are really struggling, working two jobs, or lots of overtime to survive, then there really may not be much time to cook properly.

    Fair point. Yet the Guardian article points out that by far the highest rising food prices are for processed food. So as it becomes less affordable, people are buying more of it? Bonkers!

    Whats better?
    A decaying, rat infested shithole of a building, that looks like an abcess on the edge of the town, or somewhere that provides employment in a recesion.
    If your rich enough that your kids don’t need a part time job, great, what about everybody else?

    A decaying, rat infested shithole of a building, that looks like an abcess

    Now come on! Farnborough’s not THAT bad!

    😉

    Premier Icon nedrapier
    Subscriber

    grum, I’m not arguing for or agaist MacDonalds, just observing that a new MacD’s seems to be targetted as a dangerous contributor to obesity in a way that a new GBK wouldn’t, despite their burgers having far fewer calories.

    Or a curry house. Ordering and eating way more than you need seems to be part of the curry house experience.

    Can you tell me why there’s such a difference in attitudes?

    mikeconnor
    Member

    The fact that your local pub doesn’t spend millions on advertising it’s unhealthy products to your kids?

    You really don’t get this, do you>? Thelocal pub sells alcoholic products. Alcohiolism is is one of the greatest social diseases on earth. ergo, the local pub is just as culpable in casuing damage to society as McDs. And whilst the local pub may nort spend billins on advertising unhealthy products to children, the alcohol indiustry does, and it’s that advertisng and lifestyle promotion that local pubs rely on.

    No-one’s innocent.

    grum
    Member

    grum, I’m not arguing for or agaist MacDonalds, just observing that a new MacD’s seems to be targetted as a dangerous contributor to obesity in a way that a new GBK wouldn’t, despite their burgers having far fewer calories.

    I don’t think that’s about class – I think that’s about the fact that I suspect most people would see going to GBK as a treat to be done maybe once or twice a month. My experience from working at McDonald’s is that it wasn’t seen like that by many people. And before anyone starts wittering on about snobbery – many of those people were office workers on their lunch break, often ordering a large meal AND extra burgers, McFlurrys etc

    It makes no difference. The moral truth is that you still have a choice.

    What does this even mean? It makes no difference because you say it doesn’t? Yes let’s ignore the reasons why things happen and talk about moral truth. 😕

    You really don’t get this, do you>? Thelocal pub sells alcoholic products. Alcohiolism is is one of the greatest social diseases on earth. ergo, the local pub is just as culpable in casuing damage to society as McDs.

    Hang on, I thought we were in favour of individual responsibility? I’m not sure when pubs started heavily marketing their products towards children though. And yes, it is irresponsible for pubs to serve alcoholics, or people that are already drunk – some of them don’t. I doubt McDonalds have ever turned anyone away for being too fat.

    Premier Icon tomhoward
    Subscriber

    1) The fact that eating that from Sainsbury’s every day probably wouldn’t kill you/make you obese?

    Rather depends what you choose to buy from there, no?

    Junkyard
    Member

    Vegetarian & Vegan AND Chicken Flavour??

    Junkyard – get the kettle on!!!

    Pot noodles are vegan – never had one mind but told this is the case

    the rules are

    Cheap and full of chemicals = vegan- works with biscuits as well[ more expensive noodles will have egg in them for example]

    Organic, wholewheat and ethically sourced = vegan and very expensive

    Fruit and veg – cheap now learn to cook

    I dont think anyone is saying Mc D makes us all obese. I dont think anyone is saying you cant eat the odd bit of unhelathy food in moderation. I think it seems to be the view of some that their is a pervasive culture of fast food and eating crap that is sweeping the country and leading to us being a nation of fatties [ the evidence of rising obesity is indisputable though we could debate the causes]
    I would argue that fast food places are nto the prime cause [ people are lazy and they like high fat high sugar foods rather than healthy food]but they are part of the problem

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    The fact that your local pub doesn’t spend millions on advertising it’s unhealthy products to your kids?

    The money that McDonalds spends on advertising, as a percentage of its turnover, would probably be the same as your local pub if it stuck this sign outside…

    1) The fact that eating that from Sainsbury’s every day probably wouldn’t kill you/make you obese?
    2) The fact that your local pub doesn’t spend millions on advertising it’s unhealthy products to your kids?

    1) You could go into Sainsbury’s every day and come out with a 1kg ready made trifle, just as you could go into MacDonalds every day and come out with a salad.
    2) Your local pub doesn’t spend millions, but once you add all the pubs and brewerys in the country’s advertising up it almost certainly exceeds that of MacDonalds.

    As for advertising aimed at children, I think it should all be banned. But that should be done in legislation and we shouldn’t be banning particular companies or restaurants because they have become a scapegoat for “junk food”.

    yunki
    Member

    yep.. our dying little seaside town, with it’s university campus closure and one mega tesco..

    Asda applied to build on a dilapidated eyesore of an unused overnight lorry park and an ageing and scruffy sports centre.. they were given very strict conditions and promised a new sports facility, pedestrianised area and so on and so forth.. it would have been a nice way to spruce up a very unloved grotty space between the rotten old train station and a marshy area of mudflats..

    but the local hippies stirred up a lynch mob and the plans were quoshed, nothing positive happened as a result, the area is still a grubby piece of waste ground and it’s left Tesco with a monopoly and some of the highest food prices across Europe as a result..

    jfletch
    Member

    Though to be honest, I don’t really get this at all. How its ‘cheaper’ to buy pre-packaged, processed crap than make decent meals with fresh ingredients?

    Fresh ingredients are expensive. Very expensive. This is for two reasons.

    1. It’s expensive to supply fresh things, they have a short shelf lives, they go off, they grow in seasons unless you interveen expensively etc. Long life/processed food doesn’t have these issues as and often a lot of the ingredients are a byproduct of fresh food.

    2. The people who buy fresh are better off (on average) and prices are harder to compare directly, therefore supermarkets can charge a higher margin than for the processed stuff which is much more price sensitive.

    The supermarkets and the manufacturers are the enemy here. Like the people who vetoed the traffic light labelling legistlation. Your box of chicken nuggets drops in value as soon as its got red lights all over the packaging but nobody can percive the issue with eating something which contains 50% of your GDA of salt.

    Premier Icon nedrapier
    Subscriber

    1) The fact that eating that from Sainsbury’s every day probably wouldn’t kill you/make you obese?

    Rather depends what you choose to buy from there, no?

    Indeed. They’ve got a hot food stand. Sometimes I have a Chicken Tikka Masala rather than a sandwich. Also, sometimes (way more often than I should) I buy a bag of 4 or 5 cookies and scoff them all in an afternoon.

    I cycle 12 miles a day and pretty active on top of that, but plenty don’t and aren’t. The special cookies are on speaciel offer at the moment. I suspect they want to sell them to people, the rotters.

    What does this even mean? It makes no difference because you say it doesn’t? Yes let’s ignore the reasons why things happen and talk about moral truth.

    Why are you so belligerent? Are you really that angry?

    🙄 the moral truth is all that matters. The arguments you make are relevant of course but no matter what, individuals have the choice to say no. There is no force, no subliminal advertising, no lack of alternatives. You still have the ultimate say, it’s your responsibility to choose.

    grum
    Member

    Rather depends what you choose to buy from there, no?

    1) You could go into Sainsbury’s every day and come out with a 1kg ready made trifle, just as you could go into MacDonalds every day and come out with a salad.

    You both missed the fact that I was specifically referring to the sandwich, crisps and apple he mentioned – not just buying anything from Sainsburys.

    How many people actually buy salads from McDonalds I wonder (and weren’t they found to have more fat in than a Big Mac anyway?).

    I sort of take the point that McDonalds get more bad press than other companies that do bad things, but that’s mainly because they are probably the biggest purveyors of crap food, that market it most aggressively to children.

    Why are you so belligerent? Are you really that angry?

    It’s interesting that you perceive that as belligerence, it was more being bemused by your statement being completely dismissive while not really making any sense.

    These two statements are completely contradictory:

    the moral truth is all that matters.

    The arguments you make are relevant of course

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    The supermarkets and the manufacturers are the enemy here.

    The supermarkets have pulled off one of the greatest scams ever IMHO. People just assume that they’re cheap. They’re anything but! If you want to eat decent food, at least.

    Fresh fruit and veg is twice the price in the supermarket, as it is the greengrocers round the corner. Same with meat and fish, compared to butchers. Yet the myth of value remains

    Premier Icon tomhoward
    Subscriber

    You both missed the fact that I was specifically referring to the sandwich, crisps and apple he mentioned – not just buying anything from Sainsburys.

    Still varies massively though. What sandwich will sir be having? The boiled chicken salad with no mayo, or the all day breakfast triple? White or brown bread? Crisps aren’t exactly the healthy choice either! Apple juice is full of sugar…..

    I’m not trying to pick holes, just illustrate that it’s all about choices.

    mikeconnor
    Member

    Hang on, I thought we were in favour of individual responsibility? I’m not sure when pubs started heavily marketing their products towards children though. And yes, it is irresponsible for pubs to serve alcoholics, or people that are already drunk – some of them don’t. I doubt McDonalds have ever turned anyone away for being too fat.

    The alcohol industry (on which pubs rely) spends silly amounts on advertising and promotion. Our culture celebrates the consumption of alcoholic beverages. Our children see drinking alcohol as normal and acceptable, mainly. So you’re kind of losing the anti-McDs argument here. you could eat solely in Mc Ds and survive (albeit you’d probably be quite unhealthy). If you consumed nothing but alcohol you’d be dead very quickly. so will oyu now be campaigning for all pubs to be closed down?

    i doubt any pub has ever turned away anyone for being an alcoholic.

    and weren’t they found to have more fat in than a Big Mac anyway?

    I wouldn’t be at all surprised if that were the case, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if many of the sandwiches and salads in the supermarkets were worse than a Big Mac as well. MacDonalds sells food that isn’t the healthiest, but there are hundreds of other places that sell food that is just as bad for you, if not worse. Banning MacDonalds isn’t the answer to our obesity problems, unless all the fatties are visiting MacDonalds 3 or 4 times a week, then they must be getting a lot of unhealthy food from elsewhere too.

    Premier Icon tomhoward
    Subscriber

    i doubt any pub has ever turned away anyone for being an alcoholic.

    Bet a fair few have for being too pissed though.

    These two statements are completely contradictory:

    I was trying to appease you. Keep you calm.

    grum
    Member

    Still varies massively though. What sandwich will sir be having? The boiled chicken salad with no mayo, or the all day breakfast triple? White or brown bread? Crisps aren’t exactly the healthy choice either! Apple juice is full of sugar…..

    I’m not trying to pick holes, just illustrate that it’s all about choices.

    I understand the point, but my experience is that in McDonalds no-one has the healthy option, ever. Why would you? I certainly don’t if I go there. Let’s face it it’s only really there as a sop to healthy eating, not to actually be consumed.

    Sainsburys has a pretty broad range of stuff which people actually go there for, from healthy to rubbish – not just a massive shop full of crap, with a tiny shelf of vegetables hidden in the corner. I’d be quite happy if they sold less crap and more healthy stuff btw.

    The alcohol industry (on which pubs rely) spends silly amounts on advertising and promotion. Our culture celebrates the consumption of alcoholic beverages. Our children see drinking alcohol as normal and acceptable, mainly.

    Yes, I don’t think that’s particularly great either, but then this thread is about fast food, not alcohol – we could do this ‘whataboutery’ all day if you like.

    Banning MacDonalds isn’t the answer to our obesity problems, unless all the fatties are visiting MacDonalds 3 or 4 times a week, then they must be getting a lot of unhealthy food from elsewhere too.

    Nice straw man there – has anyone called for banning McDonalds? And I would say visiting McDonalds 3-4 times a week is far from uncommon.

    so anyway, back to the pub in question… most of the people signing the petition, and indeed most of the people standing outside of the pub 2 saturdays ago with banners didn’t go there regularly and even if it did open again, probably still wouldn’t as i know most of em and they’re either not local, or exactly the people who used to moan it was rubbish.

    so anyway, back to the pub in question… most of the people signing the petition, and indeed most of the people standing outside of the pub 2 saturdays ago with banners didn’t go there regularly and even if it did open again, probably still wouldn’t as i know most of em and they’re either not local, or exactly the people who used to moan it was rubbish.

    Up the road from me, there are two pubs. One is closed, one is thriving. The latter has made a real effort to do something different. The former was just a rather sad place with a couple of blokes nursing pints of lager.

    Pubs can, and do, thrive at the moment. It’s sad to see so many shutting down, but when they do, I think we’d all rather see something constructive in their place rather than a boarded up old wreck. McD’s, for all their faults and strengths, are better than a boarded up old wreck. By far.

    mikeconnor
    Member

    Yes, I don’t think that’s particularly great either, but then this thread is about fast food, not alcohol – we could do this ‘whataboutery’ all day if you like.

    Both are potentially damaging to individuals and society. Yet you’re choosing to attack one particular company, rather than be focussed on the whole picture. My point is that if you’re going to attack/oppose McDs on health grounds, then you’re hypocritical if you don’t also include the alcoholic drinks industry.

    having lived quite close to a pub, I think I’d rather live near a McDs, as you don’t tend to get so many pissed up idiots urinating in doorways/vomiting in the gutter/fighting/being noisy late at night/smashing glass etc as a result of Mcds being there than you do with (some) pubs

    Thing is, its like the belief that “fast food” is cheap

    fish and chips for two is a clear tenner now, KFC bucket is more, maccy d for two is nearly ten quid

    Go into wetherspooons on a tuesday night and you can 2x get steak, chips and two pints for less than that 😀

    Full roast dinner for £5.99, with as much veg as you like round the corner at the Toby carvery 8)

    TooTall
    Member

    So why is it that we are facing an obesity crisis then? Has peoples’ fundamental nature just changed in the last few decades to become much, much greedier and lazier, for no apparent reason?

    Reduced manual labour combined with an increase in knowledge-based jobs / computers etc means the workforce is far less active, therefore we need less calories to survive. Oh – better housing, better heating, less poverty and playstations have had a big impact. Car ownership has also increased. Disposable income and the rise of eating out have had an impact.

    So – our nature has probably changed less in many ways – but lots of things have changed in our culture(s), not just one. Unless you still want to demonise Ronald.

    Back to the OP – people are reactive on the whole – not proactive. They will rally against something after the event far more than they will rise up and do something to prevent that event happening.

    djglover
    Member

    The average sandwich from Sainsburys will have around the same nutritional value as a big mac.

    I mean which planet are some of you on

    Sainsburys sells C200g of sandwich including protein item, sauce, lettuce and bread.

    The only difference is at macdonalds is that its round and served hot

    Do you think cutting a sandwich into triangles and serving it cold means its better for you

    Just a load of ignorant NIMBY muppets

    grum
    Member

    Both are potentially damaging to individuals and society. Yet you’re choosing to attack one particular company, rather than be focussed on the whole picture.

    Yes, because whenever anyone criticises anything, it’s important that they remember to immediately criticise everything else in the whole world that’s worthy of criticism too, for fear of being hypocritical. 😕

    A pub has the potential to cause harm, but also has potential social benefits as a community hub etc. Certainly based on the McDonalds I worked at the social benefits were pretty much zero.

    Reduced manual labour combined with an increase in knowledge-based jobs / computers etc means the workforce is far less active, therefore we need less calories to survive. Oh – better housing, better heating, less poverty and playstations have had a big impact. Car ownership has also increased. Disposable income and the rise of eating out have had an impact.

    So – our nature has probably changed less in many ways – but lots of things have changed in our culture(s), not just one. Unless you still want to demonise Ronald.

    Yes those are potential factors too, but I’m pretty sure most of the latest research suggests diet is far more important than levels of physical activity (and that levels of physical activity haven’t actually changed as much as is sometimes made out).

    The average sandwich from Sainsburys will have around the same nutritional value as a big mac.

    If you choose an unhealthy one then yes, you’re right.

    jfletch
    Member

    You can get a full roast dinner carvery for £3.99 at the pub* up the road from me. I’d rather eat a Maccy Ds any day of the week (or go hungry for that matter!)

    *I’d not really call this a pub, its a junk food chain styled to mimic a traditional British drinking establishment. Its about as much a pub as Nandos is a genuine Portuguese restaurant.

    Premier Icon willard
    Subscriber

    And finally, can you really make a proper, nutritious meal from fresh ingredients for 11p/22p/33p?

    Ask Sodexo. They run the PAYD setup for the forces and the opinions on that are… mixed. My personal opinion is that some canteens/messes do a good job and others don’t. One of my least enjoyable eating experiences ever was in a PAYD mess hall.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    Go into wetherspooons on a tuesday night and you can get steak, chips and two pints for less than that glassed

    FTFY 😉

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    They should have built a mahoosive Greggs instead!

    PeterPoddy
    Member

    so anyway, back to the pub in question… most of the people signing the petition, and indeed most of the people standing outside of the pub 2 saturdays ago with banners didn’t go there regularly and even if it did open again, probably still wouldn’t as i know most of em and they’re either not local, or exactly the people who used to moan it was rubbish.

    That’s becasue it WAS rubbish! God, I spent enough time in there, I should know. Friendly though, and good music.

    But there was banners and stuff was there? I missed that. I think we were out on a bike ride in the morning and then we went to Blazingsmoke Basinghole Basingstoke 🙂

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Well I hadn’t seen those cartoon network ads. Not terribly impressed.

    If i saw rubbish from my business littering the road i would be deeply ashamed.

    Come off it. People who want to eat in their cars will do so, if they feel like chucking the rubbish out of the window they will do. I don’t think the vendor has much to do with it.

    Lots of snobbery on here.

    The building next to my wife’s bakery shop was for years semi-derelict looking and used for furniture storage by a student landlord. Just over a year ago he leased it to Sainsburys who turned it into a ‘Local’. Since then my wife’s takings have increased 40% as it contributes to making the whole area look smarter.

    TooTall
    Member

    diet is far more important than levels of physical activity

    Diet. Is that the stuff people buy at home, or is everyone just eating badly when they go to McD’s? Education, not availability of the product, is to blame. People can still buy cigarettes, but less do because of education – and death of course – but education is the answer.

    mikeconnor
    Member

    Yes, because whenever anyone criticises anything, it’s important that they remember to immediately criticise everything else in the whole world that’s worthy of criticism too, for fear of being hypocritical.

    McDs are far from being the only culprits in this. so if you;’re goijng to crticise companies that help create a problem, it’s unfair to target just one.

    The alcohol industry is just as deserving of criticism as are McDs. Yet you chose to ignore them in your crusade against poor health. Just focussing on one part of things, rather than looking at the whole picture. Focussing on just one company as you are, means that other companies don’t suffer the scrutiny they desrve.

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