nickc is right.

The internet is rife with people who confuse ‘anecdote’ with ‘data’. They have a problem with one single Acme fork and hey presto the “all ACME forks are sh1te” thread pops up.

Let’s face it, all mass-produced items have an occasional rogue product. One step goes adrift eg in an Italian factory for a few hours and ‘M*rz*cc* don’t measure the oil properly’ becomes their reputation for years.

so, the short answer to OP’s question is: no, not all fork companies are useless.

Good point…

I always preferred the steel stanchions of Mag 10’s to the alloy ones of Mag 21s. And plus, the steel stanchions had a noticably larger airspace, so better spring properties.

But indeed, the problem are weight of course. And stiction. A motorcycle weighs lots more than a mountainbike, and the sprung/unsprung mass ratio is much more on the side of the stiff fork seals. Whereas on a mountainbike with lower sprung/unsprung (I bet I got that the wrong way round, but I mean the ratio between the moving bits and the static bits) means that everything has to move a lot more slickly.

Hardly ever do you get threads that start “My Forks have been faultless for years”

…and even if you did, such a superbly reliable fork would have been superseded by a new model which may not have the same level of reliability.

Come on then Brant, why not design us a range of UK-proof suspension forks, e.g. three models: Race, All-Round and Downhill. Then sell it to one of the big manufacturers 🙂

That certainly is a point Brant – however ‘zocchis manage with motorcycle type seals – the ones I have the seal at the top of the slider holds the air pressure ( the only seal in the open bath system) so must be a tight fit. I don’t particularly notice stiction with them

well as no one else has said it..

MY FORKS HAVE BEEN FAULTLESS FOR YEARS 😀

yes, they really have! Fox float RLC, 2006. Never lifted the seals or taken the legs off, used them in the alps, lakes, yorskhire all year round. I just wash the bike with a hose occaisionally, and wipe any crap off the stanchions if they’re really bad and spray + bounce with some finish line wet lube then wipe again. Been serviced once (march this year) by TFT who said internally were in excellent condition on the work sheet. So not all Fox are rubbish 🙂

edit: I bet they break tomorrow now….

Are all fork companies useless?

No, what most of them are are a complete rip off.

c£800. Then there are the new Dorado’s. Shiny? Check. Stickers? Check. Price? Check.

I say most, for 2010 Fox showed us a cross-section of their new forks to show ‘where all the money has gone’…. hmmm time will tell on those.

Tj- what do you mean by motor cycle seals? The burly rockshox forks have a wiper and seperate double lipped oil seal underneath. Is that what you have?

Brant may have a point, but let’s face it, our cars and motorbikes don’t need to have their shocks serviced every 15 hours, in fact you’re talking about years and thousands of miles…. Clearly there designs are at fault, but we probably don’t drive the necessary R&D investment as a sport.

Retro – motorcycle type seals hold air pressure at high pressures and do not admit dirt. I don’t know the specifics of the design but at a guess the ones you describe do this. . Similar to hydraulic seals in hydraulic rams.

The seals on the Foxes I have allow oil to pass and have this daft foam ring thing in them

so what I know is the function – that motorcycle seals do not allow oil or air to pass at any pressures they can generate – even up to total hydraulic lock ( which I did once by overfilling a set)

some MTB ones seem to be much “looser” and allow oil and dirt to pass

motorbikes weigh about 10 times the weight of a mountian bike overcoming tight seals, plus if you ride your R1 offroad and cover it in mud it will break also.

Turnip – your first point may well be valid – your second is not – motorbike seals last on offroad motorbikes and and my road bikes that survive many winters use caked in salt and road spray

i think one of the things that has changed is the level of sophistication on modern forks, people are quite happy (well grudgingly) to pay top whack for a fork that offers fantastic damping, in a lightweight package. then they are not prepared to do the servicing that goes with it. you can compare a fork on a bike to that on a car, but in reality, most cars dont have damping or suspension anywhere near what you get on a modern suspension fork, it is really crude, and can be very heavy, relatively. what you are comparing it to is more like something engineered for the rally world, offroad buggy racing (fox, anyone?) etc, where performance is paramount, but service life is not the biggest concern.
i would suggest that people not happy to either maintain their forks as per the manufacturers guidelines, or unwilling to pay a reputable person to do so, look at other products. RS toras for instance have steel legs, large oil volumes, and seem to be plenty durable from what i see of them. of course they are also heavier and not as sophisticated – you pays your money and makes your choices – from what i have seen, high end forks are normally sold on the basis of performance, not durability, live with those decisions.
I agree people think there is a place for a fork manufacturer to design a heavy, well mannered, fork with long service life, but i wonder if the market would buy it?
as someone said earlier,RS mag forks went on for ages, but for their travel were heavy, unsubtle, and flexy. would that be a sacrifice too far 🙂

Will…

will…car shocks have to carry over a ton, regularly over 60,000 miles/years and average roads. fork internals arent ‘rocket science’ compared.

Its the bollocks we are being fed. I genuinely think the recent court case Pinder v Fox has had an effect on their warranty/servicing schedules- not a direct effect as that was a design flaw, more overall (they’re looking at worse-case/all eventualities), a look at to stop any future court cases based on suspension failure/part failure itself.

but car shocks dont have to cope with a jetwash being aimed at them, are not being bent back and forth(by virtue of the design aplication), dont have to be able to move smoothly when someone leans on the gearstick….also, as you said, a car weighs a ton. last time i looked, the coil spring on my car was a foot and a half long, wound out of 12mm spring steel, inside that was a 2foot long damper, that had 8″ of travel. last time i felt a much smaller damper unit from the rear end, (it was made by sachs, btw) it was entirely steel, and weighed about 6 kilos.

i just think it is unrealistic to expect a fork to do the job it does, to the level it does, with the weight limitations born by the application, without regular maintenance. oh, i daresay you could build one to do a 3 year life, give it whatever stick you want, but i sure as hell aint going to stick a fifteen pound 6″ travel fork on my bike, i’ll put up with the maintenance thanks 🙂

Will…

I think MTB forks are over-priced,but they do perform well in grim UK conditions. I don’t carry out any real maintenance on my bike,but it is cleaned,usually immediately following a ride and I don’t use a jetwash (why would you?).My Revelations have behaved themselves and the recently acquired Float is the dog’s doo dahs. So far.

I think over zealous washing has a lot to do with many of the problems folk have. I give my fork stanchions a good blast of silicon lube after most rides and very rarely wash them. I often store them upside down but not always. Ive had no issues for years now with very little servicing.
Can’t vouch for Fox or anyone else as Ive had only RS. Air pikes and now Reba 29er.
I live in the highlands of scotland where it is sometimes muddy. I ride all winter with my most regular loop being the infamous ‘Puffer track.

I was a wash maniac when I first started biking and wrecked many a bearing.

As someone else said
My forks have been faultless for years.

……….but I look forward to them snapping this weekend 😀

On my 5th set of fox forks and never had any problem with them ever. Ride an average of 30 off road miles a week, every week all year round. They’ve had trips to the alps and Spain and been faultless.

nickc – I didn’t believe the reports of how poor the Marzocchi’s last year were until I tried one.

The fact remains that most forks are inadequately sealed for UK conditions, and won’t last even if serviced. Things have got better in some cases – my first pair of Rockshox lasted 1 year with 2 services and the anodising was shot, I had a pair of SID’s I got in 2001 that with yearly servicing and a bit of a bodge on the homer valve are still running after much abuse (although now on my partner’s bike). This isn’t too bad, but it really should be better.

I’ve had other forks not make it to the first recommended service without wearing away the anodising only to be told that the CSU is a consumable item FFS!

As Will says, there is no point comparing with cars.

1. The suspension on ‘normal’ cars is pretty crude and performance doesn’t have to be that great.
2. Road car suspension has very few constraints in the areas of weight or adjustability.

Basically it’s comparatively easy to design a car suspension system to last for ages without servicing while still meeting the performance criteria.

will, but what about a high end fork with all the bells and whistles, that is only marginally heavier BUT with a massively increased lifespan and service intervals?

I would buy into that.

That said I run Maverick forks, dont really do any maintenance, but am comfortable in the knowlege, when they do need it, its a DIY job. So I guess I already have bought into it.

Motorbike forks are just as delicate, if we look at a similar application, Ohlins MX forks have a 25 hour service interval.

I don’t think adjustability brings any sort of necessity of worse sealing though!

I agree it’s different to standard car parts, there’s bound to be more failures of things in the damping etc. as things are manufactured on a smaller scale and development is much faster, but there’s really no excuse for poor seals etc. I think things have swung a bit far with adjustability and stuff, have seen plenty of people buy the all singing all dancing fork then not have a clue what all the knobs do and probably end up with a worse set up than if they simply had spring rate/rebound damping to adjust.

recent court case Pinder v Fox

What was the outcome?

will, but what about a high end fork with all the bells and whistles, that is only marginally heavier BUT with a massively increased lifespan and service intervals?

I would buy into that.

That said I run Maverick forks, dont really do any maintenance, but am comfortable in the knowlege, when they do need it, its a DIY job. So I guess I already have bought into it.

Sounds good to me… going to involve a new frame though…

What was the outcome?

Settled via a payout. Which doesn’t necessarily mean what Hora thinks it means…

DoctorRad… Why? I dont get what you mean.

Motorbikes and cars have engines to haul excess weight around. You can build pretty indestructable suspension if weight isn’t as much of an issue as it is on mountain bikes.

The original poster named a bunch of different factors, but left out the important one: the user.

I’ve had great experiences with Rock Shox, Marzocchi, Pace and Stratos forks. I’ve had horrible experiences with RS, Marzocchi, Pace and Stratos forks, too. On the balance of things, it’s all been pretty positive, I’d say.

I’m more than willing to buy into the service scheme of things. Anyone who has seen my bike will vouch for this and I actively enjoy cleaning and maintaining my bike (weirdo?). But to come out with these ridiculously low service intervals HAS negated 90% of warranty claims. I only ride twice a week and my forks have to have a strip down every two weeks (according to RS). This hasn’t always been the case with RS. I had a set of Duke SL’s for two years without servicing (yes i know should of done) and i’ve had SID’s that have been flawless, its sods law that the most expensive out of the lot have been the problamatic.

I think it maybe a valid if not exact analagy with motorcycle/MX forks beacause they have at least longer service intervals. We accept that things have to be maintained but things at the minute are not good enough. I think we’ve reached the peak of travel vs weight because longevity just isn’t there.

What i’m looking forward to seeing the BOS forks, wonder if they are the answer? 🙄

DoctorRad… Why? I dont get what you mean.

Maverick XC forks are 4.5″ jobs, I don’t have a suitable frame at the moment, my three MTB frames being 92-94 vintage…!

I see, sounds an expensive change then!!

Apart from Marzocchis of old, Most of the forks I’ve ridden since I started riding in 1999 have been about the same or worse for required maintenance as existing models.

What has changed is weight, strength and stiffness per amount of travel, quality of damping and quality of travel, which have all improved (along with increased price)

As has been alluded here already its impossible to improve seals without increasing stiction, or improving tolerance to dirt ingress (AKA old Marzocchis) by carrying alot of oil. Both or these will impact quality of travel and compliance or weight.

The price for performance is maintenance.

How many of the riders on this forum don’t clean their stanchions after a ride or before the next? r

This is my little supposition:

If you don’t, hardened, dry dirt gets forced directly into the fork seals on the next ride? This not only forces substantial dirt it, but it gets wetted by the oil in the fork, softens and detaches in the fork. The oil in the seals gets absorbed by this dry dirt and you end up with a dry, ‘grabby’ seal that seals even less effectively and contains a grinding paste and a reservoir of captive dirt to further contaminate your forks internal lubricating oil.

Car dampers are both substantially better sealed, benefit from a substantial sprung mass and are also shielded from the impact of high velocity dirt as well as the sealing.

Dirt ingress is due in part to the force the the mud/water strikes the seal (hence pressure washers force water in) A simple shield for fork seals to reduce the velocity of mud/dirt striking the seals would probably help, but obviously it needs to let the water and mud free-drain, unlike a fork boot.

my bike is cleaned after every ride and seals lubricated, i think most people have got into the routine of cleaning the stantions and putting a little oil on now

I’m not so convinced. I’ve ridden with plenty that don’t.

Incidentally, I took the lowers off my Rebas last night for the second time in 2.5 years.
As with the first time, they were virtually spotless inside.

They only get cleaned with the hose after some (but not all) rides.

Seems like pretty damn good reliability to me, considering the number of miles and the amount of crap they’ve been through.

p.s. I never put oil on the wiper seals. What’s the point? The seal is there to separate the oil inside and the dirt outside.

The point is to lift out dirt that is embedded in the seal, not to keep the oil topped up. You oil the seal, cycle the fork a couple of times and then wipe it off.

It also helps to ensure the seal is lubricated which means less stiction.

But there’s no dirt in there anyway, on my forks at least.

Agree on old QR revs. Had a couple of pairs. Both ace, both abused in horrid weather and continued to be plush and well sealed.

2009 Air U-Turn 20mm? Same issue as a poster on the first page. Seen FOUR pairs go in the same place (motion control top cap p!ssing oil) in the last month. Three of those within 10 hours of fitting. Mine were six months old and clearly have caught “fork flu” from the others.

Lovely forks tho. Right up until the time they broke.

I dont want to put the kiss of death on my forks by talking about them…

All I want is a damping cartridge for my revelations, unfortunately they seem to be made of hens teeth……