EUR 2,600

it’s not a “british” billion stavro 🙂

Not anymore.

Not a bad thing.

What gets me is the Irish Government say they don’t want the money

How about they pay the money out to the eurozone countries and the UK which bailed them out or the sub-debt holders in Bank of Ireland who got screwed over by the government

stavromuller – Member 
What gets me is the Irish Government say they don’t want the money. Ireland’s population is less than 5 million, so every man woman and child could be given €2,600,000 each. I bet they wouldn’t say they don’t want it.

The loss of Apple and such companies is worth more to their economy than a one off tax payment.

Stavro, it’s not that difficult to understand. Imagine why Ireland is “home” to so many global tech companies. It’s a deliberate and arguably rational choice.

But it is more difficulty for the Irish to work out what to do next as this interesting article suggests (and this if from an unusual Irish angle as you will see)

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/we-should-collect-apple-s-13-billion-and-change-ireland-1.2773136?ftcamp=crm%2Femail%2F%2Fnbe%2FBrusselsBrief%2Fproduct

It’s a deliberate and arguably rational choice.

Absolutely, Ireland has always produced lots of well educated people but historically many emigrated. The low tax environment brought employers to Ireland and allowed the Irish to benefit economically from the expenditure on education, leading to economic growth and significant improvements in quality of life. Of course they then mucked it up with a huge property bubble.

sorry poly, I’m not reading that, its bollox

how do you know if you’ve not read it?

and when you’ve done a few more years in the business you’ll know it is.

how long do you think I’ve done “in business” and at exactly what point will I have my epiphany? If you actually bother to read it, and understand it rather than assume anyone disagreeing with you is wrong, what you’ll see is I am saying tax “split” in international entities is not trivial.

Do tou think anyone in the UK would be buying apple products or media is there wasnt property right supported by courts, safe streets, good healthcare, roads and utlities that supported the businesses that apples customers used to earn money?

I’m not sure what your point is? I haven’t suggested that tax wasn’t due, I just called you out on your previous assertion that “its only complicated before it suits lots of people who make money out of complexity.” I am sure it is more complex than it needs to be, and I am sure that there are people making money out of that complexity. But if I (in the UK) go and buy an iPhone this afternoon and then buy a song from Apple tonight how much tax do you think UK Government *should* get from those transactions? If its not complicated you’ll be able to explain… [it would be useful if you could also explain how much the Irish, US, and Chinese should get for their contributions to the technology in my pocket].

Companies that tax dodge are parisites, individuals that help them are scum, if we applied 10% of the effort we do to dodging tax into formulatimg a method to make sure it was paid fairly the problem( but also scumbag profits) would go away.

To a large extent I agree, although I think as soon as you use emotional language like parasites and scum you are starting to lose the argument. Now, if a country identifies that it would be in its interests to attract jobs, investment, research and development, etc. should that country be able to incentivise businesses to bring those benefits to its shores through taxation policy? should companies ignore such incentives? if our employment, pensions, economy and therefore government success are entwined with the success of business then is it actually in the “public” interest to expect business to behave in an altruistic or philanthropic manner rather than focus on commercial success? You see, its easy to say that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong, but until you present a clear thought out solution that works on a global scale then your arguments are just soundbites. When you’ve done a few more years in international politics/economics you’ll see that 😉

http://www.apple.com/ie/customer-letter/

Apple write…

Edit: a far more polite response than I was about to muster, there poly.

As a layman, I see it like this. Apple and RoI come to an agreement that allows Apple to establish a facility in Cork. This agreement is followed over the years, the business thrives and the local economy benefits. The EU subsequently investigate and demand that a significant retro payment is needed despite neither Apple nor RoI wanting this. This could influence future investment both from existing and potential future employers. I would imagine EMC are also watching how this plays out very closely.

If is affects future investment adversely then I would imagine that the effect on RoI would be worse than the benefit enjoyed from receiving £11bn.

The EU subsequently investigate and demand that a significant retro payment is needed despite neither Apple nor RoI wanting this.

So Apple then has a choice, where does it base it’s EU HQ, where does it run it’s profits to be tax efficient? Pick the next country to save some cash in?

Apple hire a few 1000 people in Ireland (mostly admin jobs processing contracts, cash payments etc … ? ) and the EU loses £30-40 billion in taxes (corp tax rates are much higher in rest of Europe than in Ireland)

Apple is a spectacularly successful and highly profitable business which pays very little tax relative to its earnings and who’s stock price is elevated as a result and who’s executives benefit greatly via share’s held and performance rewards as a result.

The tax system is totally F’ed Up

Yes Ireland and Luxembourg have made a rational judgement, they drove a coach and horses through, up and round tax law for their personal gain and to the detriment of funding for schools and hospitals throughout the EU.

If is affects future investment adversely then I would imagine that the effect on RoI would be worse than the benefit enjoyed from receiving £11bn.

Could well be, but without this sweetheart deal maybe Apple would have created some jobs in, oh, I dunno, Sunderland. Then the good folk of Sunderland would have seen the benefit of EU integration and voted Remain etc etc.

On another subject it would seem highly amusing that the Ireland finmin who was mouthing off so loudly about Greece’s tax affairs last year is now not so enthusiastic about EU oversight.

The taxes would never have been due in other EU countries, the super profit is attributable to intellectual property which was predominately developed in the US – hence it is the US who have lost their tax take – not the EU.

mefty +1

Jambas – you are letting your anti-EU obsession cloud ypur judgement here. One thing Brexiteers have to deal with is that your folly makes tax harmonisation more not less difficult.

One approach is that companies should pay no tax, but distribute all profits to individual shareholders.

If the shareholder is a national then appropriate tax is paid by him or her, if they are an overseas shareholder then a deemed amount equal to individual tax should be deducted in lieu.

ok, so i thought/assumed that this thread was something about the price paid for any apple product, regardless of its actual functional usefullness…….
so imagine my surprise with the STW thread about “apple-tax” was on the news last night.

doh.