Anyone ridden the Mojo Nicolai yet?

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  • Anyone ridden the Mojo Nicolai yet?
  • julians
    Member

    I may have missed this earlier in the thread but whats the weight of the g16/geometron frame with the x2 shock?

    Nicolai website states 3500g for frame without shock, so guessing about 4000g for frame and shock?

    BIGMAN
    Member

    @Chainline I never stated an offset I wanted. Mojo are putting together a 36 with a 20mm axle. Would you recommend ordering a certain take?

    sharkattack
    Member

    I was perving on this yesterday at the Steel City race. It looked mint so I thought I’d share the picture.

    I still love the look (and the theory) of these bikes but to be honest you’ve all blown my mind with information.

    I just want someone else to design the bike so I can ride it without thinking about it. I honestly can’t be bothered to get the rulers and protractors out and start adding and subtracting millimetres from everything. I just like big jumps and massive skids.

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    I’m not convinced that’s really the case. When you’re standing the position of the front of the bike is determined by the fork length and offset, the head angle, the head tube length and the reach, with the rear of the bike determined by the chainstay length, and the stack and BB drop dealing with the vertical aspects.

    +1

    Premier Icon Chainline
    Subscriber

    Tom, Chiefgrooveguru, but you can’t separate the ETT/Reach relative to seat angle.

    The front of the bike is indeed fork length and offset, the head angle, the head tube length (kind of as stem and spacers can compensate for HT) and the reach but the reach is typically a function of the ETT and bike size hence why I said relative to the same ETT. Two bikes with the same ETT (typically the bike size indicator along with ST length not necessarily the best indicators) but different ST angles will have quite different reach and balance.

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    Reach can be described by basic Euclidean geometry. It’s a function of the stack height and a straight line from the BB that intersects a horizontal line drawn from the centre of the head tube.

    Now I’m not entirely sure, but I’m fairly sure it has nothing whatsoever to do with ST angle. I’m 95 percent sure that whoever told you that ST angle did have an effect on reach, was off their **** rockers on shrooms.

    Moving the ST forwards or backwards, won’t do shit to the geometry of that triangle.

    If however, you mean that the weight distribution of the bike when statically sagged as opposed to sagged with a rider on it changes – then yes, ST angle will change the weight distribution of the bike – but it will be utterly negligible with the rider on top of the bike.

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    Also, this kind of misinformation puts me off listening to bike shops and even Mojo – I’d rather go the full custom route – or even knock out my own design on some CAD software and get someone to weld it up in steel. I’ve slowly come round to the crazy long is better philosophy – but some of the stuff in this thread is just plain odd.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    That’s not quite true as it has a bearing on the overall geometry. with a steeper ST, the whole front of the bike is pushed forward relative to a given ETT and CS length, making it longer and changing the weight distribution,

    This is absolutely true, I think maybe you guys have misunderstood. Chainline specifically said “relative to a given ETT and CS length”. If you change the seat angle but not the ETT then it does change reach. As Tom says, basic geometry.

    I think Chainline’s taken a weird way to look at it frankly but he’s not wrong.

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    Yeah, I think I get the way he’s trying to describe it – I think we all actually agree in a very roundabout and contrived way. If you’re keeping the ETT the same but pushing the ST angle orward that is going to increase the reach.

    I feel I need to draw a diagram to clarify this for everyone. The way I see it is we have three separate groups of parameters.

    The fundamental group which affects a bike’s handling is the chassis. The numbers that matter for this are wheel size, BB drop, chainstay length, reach, head tube length, axle-crown length, fork offset and head angle. You don’t need any more than that to determine the exact static relationship between contact patches, axles, bottom bracket height, wheelbase, front centre, trail, etc.

    The next group which affects steering feel is the bar width, rise and backsweep, the stem length and rise and steerer spacers.

    The final group which affects seated weight distribution and seated reach (effective top tube length) and pedalling position is the seat tube angle, seat height and seat post offset / saddle position on the rails.

    It could be that the final group affects your standing behaviour but it really shouldn’t – when you drop your saddle and descend where the saddle was shouldn’t affect the position of your hips.

    The steering group also affects weight distribution but much less than the rider’s own behaviour does.

    I don’t look at effective top tube lengths when sizing bikes, I look at reach, stack and seat angle.

    Premier Icon Chainline
    Subscriber

    But that was my point. The ETT, which is a function of SA on most bikes unless the horizontal intersects the top of the ST, if unchanged on two equivalent bikes but one bike has a steeer SA it impacts the reach. If the reach is different, the weight distributionof the rider is different.

    Tom, Feel free to design, or go, or listen to whomever you wish it’s a free country. We all see and explain things differently which is why they teach my daughter 5 ways to divide stuff these days.

    One thing missing there Chiefgrooveguro is that the bar width etc has an effect on the riders position which in conjunction with reach has an effect on how those contact patches work depending on terrain and particularly how a bike initiates turns and changes direction, it’s not just steering feel. You can change weight distribution and CofG with a bar width change markedly.

    greyspoke
    Member

    Actual (not virtual) seat tube angle and ETT affect where the end of the saddle is in relation to your tender body parts when the saddle is dropped. A measurement that might be felt in certain situations.

    Edited to be gender-neutral, apologies to any lady cyclists who read the original.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    Chainline – Member

    But that was my point. The ETT, which is a function of SA on most bikes unless the horizontal intersects the top of the ST, if unchanged on two equivalent bikes but one bike has a steeer SA it impacts the reach. If the reach is different, the weight distributionof the rider is different.

    I think it’s mostly a matter of reference points tbh. I think some people think of the frame geometry as being a load of tubes connected together at certain angles, which fits how you describe these changes- changing the seat tube angle pushing the headtube forward.

    Whereas others think of it as a collection of points, connected together with tubes of the appropriate length- so steepening the seat tube would shorten the top tube rather than pushing it forward

    I can make both work in my head but the latter seems more intuitive- you don’t start out with a top tube X length then decide what angle to make things so that it fits, you start out deciding where you want the key points and that determines how long the top tube is.

    . But maybe it also depends on how you work with these things? I suppose my thinking’s like redrawing a single line on a sheet of paper where everything is static, yours is a bit like dragging a point on a screen and having other points move in relation.

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    What Northwind said – I didn’t get the way you were describing it Chainline. You’re describing the same thing as us but in a different way.

    I apologise for being rude.

    But that was my point. The ETT, which is a function of SA on most bikes unless the horizontal intersects the top of the ST, if unchanged on two equivalent bikes but one bike has a steeer SA it impacts the reach. If the reach is different, the weight distributionof the rider is different.

    I think the point I’m trying to make is that ETT and SA are a distraction when thinking about designing a bike to handle well when cornering or descending. Lay the chassis out correctly, then apply the appropriate seat angle to get a comfortable seated fit and good climbing performance. Seat angle does not affect standing weight distribution and if you’re saying ETT does then it’s only because reach does.

    One thing missing there Chiefgrooveguro is that the bar width etc has an effect on the riders position which in conjunction with reach has an effect on how those contact patches work depending on terrain and particularly how a bike initiates turns and changes direction, it’s not just steering feel. You can change weight distribution and CofG with a bar width change markedly.

    No, I did mention that in my penultimate paragraph:

    “The steering group also affects weight distribution but much less than the rider’s own behaviour does.”

    If you’re still convinced that ETT and seat angle affect standing handling (assuming reach is constant), then you can test the theory by sliding your saddle backwards or forwards on the rails. I’m very fussy about where my saddle is and very sensitive to the minutiae of set-up (it’s very annoying because I’m actually not that keen on bike fettling!) and I’ve never noticed a difference from moving my saddle when it comes to descending or cornering. Yet when climbing or pedalling on the flat even a 5mm change in saddle position is obvious.

    Premier Icon Chainline
    Subscriber

    cheifgrooveguru…I agree. It is clear we are agreeing! I was never convinced SA and ETT affected static handling, merely that altering the former whilst maintaining the latter…which was my original point about the Starling, alters the factors you previously mentioned and thus does….but Rorschach has a point above there πŸ˜†

    I’m now mostly looking forward to getting my youngster and some other not so tall peeps out on the recently arrived not so long now, I think that will be interesting.

    Well that and putting the G13 back together now I also have another front 29 to use on the G16.

    It’s as if all the different tubes and angles on a frame are somehow connected to each other

    Paul j
    Member

    On a different note, put a set of 34 29″ floats on the G16. Different to what i’ve ridden before, but it certainly went quicker. also the back end seemed to snap round to where you wanted it. That’s my small input.

    Premier Icon Chainline
    Subscriber

    paul J, that would be consistent with the feeling I, CP and others have in terms of steering at the rear. I can’t say its faster or not having not timed it.

    Turning radius of the rear wont be any different to a 27.5 both ends bike, but it feels different definitely, obviously relative to the front radius.

    Premier Icon Chainline
    Subscriber

    A few guys were running 29 fronts earlier on but i think with shorter forks and no tweaking of BB heights for obvious reasons.

    enzocycling
    Member

    Hi Chainline, So now waiting for Paul to ship out my G16 longest with 44mm offset 29r fork and 222mm shock πŸ˜€
    Will I need a -1 headset to get the magic 61.5 HA, or will stock achieve that ?

    sharkattack
    Member

    This thread is now utterly impenetrable.

    I might stick with the hardtail for a while.

    Premier Icon howsyourdad1
    Subscriber

    What is the weight of a longer G13 with a trail type build?

    Premier Icon Chainline
    Subscriber

    Shark attack. That is a shame. Can you elaborate. I am trying to use it to give advice and to feedback riding impressions and what is possible and to help facilitate people getting answers or the right service.
    Also to feedback comments/views to CP and to use myself in thoughts of what could be improved going forward.

    Premier Icon Chainline
    Subscriber

    How’syourdad depends on $$$ but 30-32lbs
    Assumes 36 or similar upfront. lower end is a non piggyback rear shock.
    Wheels and tyres used make a big difference.
    Bars and saddle are easy and lowish cost weight wins.
    Cassette makes a big difference.

    enzocycling
    Member

    first shake down of the new steed

    Premier Icon Sir HC
    Subscriber

    enzocycling, fixed the link, not sure if flickr lets you share photos as images on forums, not used it in a long time.

    20170530_213820

    Premier Icon Shandy
    Subscriber

    This thread is now utterly impenetrable.

    I might stick with the hardtail for a while.

    If you have a specific question just ask and you will get an answer. Or just get in touch with Mojo they will make sure you get the right bike for you.

    Premier Icon howsyourdad1
    Subscriber

    cheers chainline. i really considering the g13 next spring. wondering if it will be updated to metric shock perhaps. enjoying this thread

    Premier Icon howsyourdad1
    Subscriber

    also, are there demo Days in sweden?!? πŸ˜€

    enzocycling
    Member

    Sir HC. thanks

    Premier Icon Chainline
    Subscriber

    howsyourdad1 well that might be more difficult! It could depend on the air fare, driveable tho….you could always take a cheap return flight to the Uk and do a day here πŸ˜‰

    Premier Icon fathomer
    Subscriber

    Here you go enzocycling, click the share button and copy & paste the BBCode πŸ˜€

    [url=https://flic.kr/p/U3egDW]20170530_213820[/url] by Leo Copeman, on Flickr

    Oh, and I have actually ridden one, the longest 650b version at the Cannock demo day a while back. I was amazingly surprised at how nimble and and poppy it felt for such a long bike with 160mm of travel. If you/they ever decide to go with a shorter travel model, 130mm rear 150mm front say, I’d be very interested.

    Premier Icon howsyourdad1
    Subscriber

    @chainline, no way I could tempt you here then with a couple of Nicolai bike in tow? there would be guaranteed interest!

    Premier Icon Chainline
    Subscriber

    Wellll, hmmmm, maybe, I’ll chat with Chris πŸ˜‰

    Premier Icon howsyourdad1
    Subscriber

    excellent . my cunning plan is working Pole are doing a demo day here in July , but obviously the Nicolai is my preferred choice πŸ˜€

    sharkattack
    Member

    Shark attack. That is a shame. Can you elaborate. I am trying to use it to give advice and to feedback…

    You’re doing just that mate, and unbelievably well. I just don’t know how you’ve got the patience for it. I hope Mojo are paying you overtime for looking after this thread!

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