Scepticism is about having an open mind, but not one that’s open to cobblers…

Scepticism isn’t the same as saying something is bollocks while knowing f-all about it. Having an open mind means I don’t need a doctor’s opinion* and isn’t the same as an open wallet.

* who are also fallible and prey for drug companies.

Scepticism isn’t the same as saying something is bollocks while knowing f-all about it.

That’s what STW is for…

I do know a fair bit about medicine and poorly folk, so I think I’m entitled to be sceptical…

* who are also fallible and prey for drug companies.

..in the same way that you are…

Like I mentioned to you a few months ago, check out the Lightning Process. I know 3 people (inc the missus) who transformed overnight from being riddled with varying degrees of ME to leading perfectly healthy active lifestyles.

I think some of the posters who are “pro” or for the idea of Bowen, have totally missed the point I was making.

You may feel better during treatment. Thats entirely natural. There are sociologial experiments going back for years to show that when humans have an “interest” taken in them, they feel different. If you go through the mystical journey of going into a room with a practitioner who does something you dont understand, but your receiving their “care” and “atention”, then that will have an affect on your wellbeing.

How else do you explain psychiatry, where its all about the minds effect on pain?

However, what I had tried to demonstrate is that the garbage cited by Bowen practitioners isn’t that they are doing something spooky that they don’t understand but it seems to work. It’s the opposite, by trying to use meaningless quazi-technical words to describe functions of the body that either don’t exist, or are so ill defined by the practitioners that they are wrapping up their mumbo jumbo to try and fool you into thinking its a genuine technique. Its almost exactly like homeopathy in that sense.

“Electrical impulses sent to the nervous system remind the body to regain normal movement in joints, muscles and tendons”.

Next, you’ll be able to get your knee ligaments to take your calls whilst your out with that kind of “memory”. Now, I think we can all see what they are trying to say. Some ill defined “memory”. We link it in our mind and interpret it a certain way, (thinming like when you stretch a piece of meat, and it slowly goes back to shape”. Is Bowen suiggesting thats the injury thought? Dunno how that treats asthma, or fybromyalgia? (Although many poeple think fybrymyalgia is a psyciatric injury itself, it cannot be explained). But this explaination cuts no clinical mustard what so ever.

If Bowen practitioners could clinically tell me what was happening, and why, and how, then I’d be prepared to cast my questioning aside.

But Bowen has all the hallmarks of a “cult/con”. Most of the practitioners are not qualified in any other clinical area, just a bunch of beardy limb stretchers. There are courses set up to train and take your money, but none of them are from “proper” places of study. They may call themselves “anatomisers”, which sounds impressive but means nothing. THere are few genuine osteo/chiropracters, who’s work can be readilly understood, who would endorse Bowen. Its all like the Poo Doctor McKeith and her Cod PHD who calls herself a nutritionist as it again has no meaning.

Basically if the bloke rubbing his hands on you (very lightly, through clothes, remember kids this is in no way whatsoever chiro or osteo, nor even massage)cant say what he is doing, how it works, or why, then do you not question why he is even there?

Still if you want to believe things that cant be explained, then go ahead. Dont call other people close minded thought. Suicide bombers believe if a spooky old guy in the sky who will give them 40 virgins for killing an israeli. Thats where believing unexplainable shit eventually takes you.

Most importantly because if it does work, if it is helpful we can start to use it on more people and therefore make the world a better place. However…. if it doesn’t work, if it is largely the placebo effect, if it is used to treat self limiting conditions, we should be aware of its limitations and be able to make sensible decisions with regard to other treatments.

I agree entirely with this. I too am a Ben Goldacre fan.
It’s just that sometimes there creeps into people’s arguments a sneering, condescending tone that does nobody any good.

It’s just that sometimes there creeps into people’s arguments a sneering, condescending tone that does nobody any good

Again, I agree, and I have been guilty of that in the past, I’m trying to be …ah… less dismissive because, as you, molgrips and others have pointed out, it’s not a good thing.

There is though, the problem that when I/we show scepticism, it is not accepted as a valid position when it actually takes an amount of thought and attention to consider the suggestions and decide that they are not what they seem. 🙂

Still if you want to believe things that cant be explained

If you think that only things that can be explained are real, then you know nothing about science!

I was sceptical about the iDave diet, but then I listened and learned and now I understand it. If I’d been dismissive or had a closed mind I wouldn’t have bothered.

Are you suggesting that Dave’s diet can’t be explained though?

In the equine world it’s used to treat muscular-skeletal issues as with humans – usually lameness.

I didn’t ask what it was used for, it can be used to raise the Titanic for what difference that makes; you said your partner had seen it work (paraphrasing) and I asked for clarification on that, which you’ve not given.

that is my placebo of choice.

Which is absolutely fine. Good luck with that.

Anyway my practitioner doesn’t go on about chak-ra’s or energy lines.

What are your practitioner’s qualifications, out of interest?

But this is based just on my experience and not wisdom gleaned from google so feel free to continue to ridicule what you know nothing about!

I was questioning, not ridiculing. Are you being defensive because you’re worried I’m right?

I tell you what’s really funny. All you ‘scientists’ insisting that alternative therapies don’t work because our knowledge of the human body doesn’t allow it.

No. I’m insisting they don’t work because, under test, they demonstrably don’t work. How they work is neither here nor there. I’d believe in Homeopathy if it stood up to double-blind testing (or even if Homeopaths ever agreed to such tests).

its the arrogance of ignorance that amuses me.

Ah, irony.

people would like to see a bit more than ‘it works’.

Not exactly. People would like to see a bit more than “it works, above and beyond placebo.”

Many, many things “work.” Most cold remedies “work.” Next time you have a cold, cover your nipples in yoghurt, three times a day. I guarantee that in a couple of weeks your cold will have cleared right up.

Are you suggesting that Dave’s diet can’t be explained though?

No – it went against what I thought I knew about exercise diet, and I turned out to be wrong. Well, more accurately I didn’t know a lot of important facts.

No. I’m insisting they don’t work because, under test, they demonstrably don’t work

Every single one?

Every single one?

Well, the ones that make it as far as testing. I can’t think, off hand, of an alternative therapy whose efficacy stands up to double-blind testing but its mechanism is unknown. Open to suggestion?

What about non-alternative therapies whose mechanism is unknown then?

Sorry cougar I’m afraid your cold, 3 dimensional logic has no place in treating an orgaism that clearly exists in multiple planes.

In 200 years the medical profession will regard today’s ‘accepted fact’ as grubbing around in the verges of understanding. It matters not that the accepted medical profession rejects anything that doesn’t rely on being proven and measured in an accepted scale. It’s similar with historians and the mainstream rejection of psychological archeology. Very similar.

What about non-alternative therapies whose mechanism is unknown then?

Mm, what about them? Not sure as I see the difference?

In 200 years the medical profession will regard today’s ‘accepted fact’ as grubbing around in the verges of understanding.

On this at least, I have no doubts that you’re correct.

Like I mentioned to you a few months ago, check out the Lightning Process. I know 3 people (inc the missus) who transformed overnight from being riddled with varying degrees of ME to leading perfectly healthy active lifestyles.

I did a LOT of research, fact finding and investigations into the Lightning Process after you suggested it. Without going into too much detail about my character, or wishing to sound ungrateful, I just don’t think it would work for me. It undoubtedly has worked for some people, but from what I’ve found it also doesn’t work for a heck of a lot more, only the guys who sell the Lightning Process are adamant it works for everyone who “believes” in it… In other words, they’re selling a Placebo! If I wake up everyday and believe I’m getting better, eventually I will… The problem is the actual believing in the first place, as with most long term illnesses there’s the element of depression that keeps creeping back in… On the whole though I’m shedloads better than I was 3 months ago, hell I raced as part of a team of 4 at SITS last weekend and didn’t disgrace myself! Still struggle with odd sleep patterns, and 1 or 2 days a week when I’m wiped out, but 3 months ago it was 1 or 2 days a week I was ok and the other 5 or 6 I was wiped out.

Bear Grylls is a big fan of Bowen Therapy apparently

Bear Grylls

Mboy, did you read about ribose during your research?

I didn’t do a lot of research into ‘the Lightning Process,’ I did what any self-respecting geek would do and looked it up on Wikipedia.

The first sentence reads,

The system is derived from osteopathy, neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) and life coaching

You don’t really need to go any further there really, do you. Osteopathy is demonstrably good for lower back pain and not much else, despite some practitioners making all sorts of wild claims to the contrary. NLP is widely discredited nonsense, and Life Coaching is essentially a nice cup of tea and a sit down.

From this we can conclude that the ‘Lightning Process’ is a bit of a back rub, and a man in a white coat listening to your problems and telling you that it’s really all going to be alright now.

What really made me laugh, though, was this.

it is made clear that the Lightning Process does not guarantee positive results, and patients themselves should accept full responsibility for whether they improve or not

Ie, if it doesn’t get better, hey, it’s your own fault for not believing in it hard enough! Ostensibly what we’ve got here is “prayer”.

it is claimed that people using the Lighting Process have recovered from, or experienced significant improvement with the following issues and conditions:

ME, chronic fatigue syndrome, PVFS, adrenal fatigue
acute and chronic pain, back pain, fibromyalgia, rheumatoid arthritis, migraine, injury
PMT, perimenopausal symptoms and menopause
clinical depression, bipolar disorder, anxiety and panic attacks, OCD and PTSD
low self-esteem, confidence issues
hay fever, asthma and allergies
candida, interstitial cystitis, urinary infections, bladder and bowel problems
IBS, coeliac disease, crohns disease, food intolerances
blood pressure, cardiac arrhythmia, type 2 diabetes, restless leg syndrome
hyper and hypo thyroidism
insomnia and sleep disorders,
autistic spectrum disorder, dyspraxia, ADHD
lymes disease, glandular fever, epstein barr
weight and food issues, anorexia
multiple sclerosis, cerebral palsy, parkinsonian tremor, motor neurone disease

Currently there is no evidence from medical trials of a positive effect for any of these conditions

Remember kiddies, if it sounds too good to be true…

Explainthe placebo effect to me please. Why does it work for some people? How can science measure it’s impact. What measurement unit is used?

I don’t know -why- it works. But as I’ve said repeatedly, whether or not I (or anyone) understands it is not a prerequisite for it to work. I guess we’re just very susceptible to suggestion.

It’s demonstrably effective though. Give a hundred people a dummy pill and tell them it’ll have some beneficial effect, give another the same pill and tell them it will have a negative effect, then measure how many people feel better or worse. Here, the only change in treatment is what you tell people.

That’s probably a bad example, before you go taking it apart. There’s probably a raft of better ways of testing, I’m not a doctor.

Here’s a good start

See now cougar this is my problem with your position.

You don’t really need to go any further there really, do you. Osteopathy is demonstrably good for lower back pain and not much else, despite some practitioners making all sorts of wild claims to the contrary. NLP is widely discredited nonsense, and Life Coaching is essentially a nice cup of tea and a sit down.
From this we can conclude that the ‘Lightning Process’ is a bit of a back rub, and a man in a white coat listening to your problems and telling you that it’s really all going to be alright now.
What really made me laugh, though, was this.

If it works it works. The fact that science can’t explain it is not grounds for dismissal. Yes there are charlatans in alternative medicine but that seems to be the case in pretty much ALL professions no?

If it works it works. The fact that science can’t explain it is not grounds for dismissal.

But back to Bowen technique. That the practioners wrap up what they do in cod semi clinical terms, which are totally meaningless, concern me. Its that they are actually explaining what they do, in total twaddle, but it sounds plausable to 90% of the population.

I’d be more impressed if they said “it works but we don’t know why”. But then no one would go to a practiioner who was that honest. But all this thing about “electrical impulses”, “energies” “letting the body remember”.

Even witch doctors must have some measure of success, or belief in them would have died out hundreds of years ago.

I’m amazed people are still fooled by all this nonsense – somebody is laughing all the way to the bank though…. and it’s not the patient…

Power Balance bands anybody?

If you’ve been let down let by the NHS enough times you’ll be ready to try anything..

but flipping heck there’s some pharmaceutical company pawns around in’t there..?

ace.. 😆

Regarding placebo, one question is – if what might be a termed a placebo reaction occurs is that necessarily a bad thing?

And what about Nocebo?

@crikey, even you have to admit you don’t know it all. The complexity of the human body is not something medical science has yet mastered. We would like science to explain everything but even in this technologically advanced age it can’t. That’s not an excuse to dismiss any claims of quackery and snake oil selling but I’d suggest it is better to approach techniques and methodologies with an open, enquiring mind. Plenty of widely held myths and assumptions and even so-called ‘facts’ have been debunked.

I’d suggest it is better to approach techniques and methodologies with an open, enquiring mind.

Which I do, but the open, enquiring bit of my mind is asking for some proof, for some evidence other than ‘That’ll be £50, you’ll feel right as rain soon’.

I don’t know it all, for example I have no veterinary training what so ever, but I can tell what an elephant looks like, and similarly, I can tell a quack therapy pretty efficiently from a considerable distance.

In 200 years the medical profession will regard today’s ‘accepted fact’ as grubbing around in the verges of understanding.

But what they’ve discovered then will be based on what we know now. “Science” is just a logical way of looking at something based on prior logical conclusions. That’s not to say that it doesn’t correct itself, but it does so by review and logical process. It’s just the opposite of wooly thinking really.

If it works it works. The fact that science can’t explain it is not grounds for dismissal.

This is the nub, isn’t it. If it ‘works’ in so far as it gets a result, even if that result is exactly the same as a sham treatment, should we still be taking it seriously? Moreover, should we be lining the pockets of con artists?

Years ago, doctors used to be able to prescribe placebo treatments. They were called pink aspirin, and they attracted similar testimonials about their brilliance from satisfied customers. They were essentially just chalk, no active ingredients whatsoever. But they worked, I’ll wager just as well as any of this pseudo-scientific twaddle, and they didn’t cost sixty quid a session for someone to lie to you.

These days they’re not allowed to prescribe placebo. Maybe that policy needs revisiting.

Mboy, did you read about ribose during your research?

No I didn’t actually, but a quick search now brings up as many doubters as believers as per usual!

What’s the theory with it?

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