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  • Anyone good with 3D printing?
  • Premier Icon molgrips
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    I got an Ender 3 v2 for Christmas. And, predictably, I’ve been having some trouble fine tuning it. I managed to get prints to come out reliably thanks to Google but I’m not sure if the quality is as good as it could be. The main issue seems to be that the extruded filament is narrower than what the model expects. I’m using the slicer that came with it, which has the profile for my machine pre-programmed, and I can’t see anything wrong with the settings (that’s not to say there isn’t something wrong though!)

    When it starts printing it runs out some plastic on the side of the bed to get it flowing – it does two runs, and these are pretty thick and they gel together into a single strip. But then when it prints the skirt, I get three individual strands:

    It then goes on to do the first layer which is stripey and again consists of individual filaments – just like is visible here on the base of my test cube:

    Overall the cubes look pretty ropey to me:

    The bottom few layers are worse than the rest, which seems strange.

    Any ideas? Suggestions? Recommendations? I’ve levelled the bed as best I can with a piece of paper as a feeler gauge; I’ve tried various z-offsets; I’ve tried different temperatures and arrived on a combination that doesn’t glob or string and the first layer sticks well; I’ve tried different speeds; I’ve calibrated the e-steps as best I can and tried a variety of other e-step settings; but whatever I do the stripeyness and the individual filaments are always present even though changing parameters affect other things like base stickiness and stringiness.

    Premier Icon cp
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    Do you get any settings/configurations options in the slicer software? It looks like your first layer gap is way too big… That will have a knock on effect on the rest of the build. That first layer is so important to the rest of the build.

    Filament printing is very fickle! Welcome to a whole world of steep learning 😉

    Premier Icon Rockhopper
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    Looks like you may be too far from the bed as well. Go to CHEPs site and download his profiles.

    Premier Icon zilog6128
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    Yes if the 1st layer isn’t smooth then your Z is too high… the nozzle should smoosh the lines together.

    You say you think the extrusion is too narrow although if anything it looks like there’s slightly too much extrusion… have you got callipers to measure or are you using trial & error? Is that massive elephants foot on only the front edge or all the way around? Could be insufficient cooling and/or too high temp

    Have you got any more (sealed) filament you can use? If the filament is cheap & has inconsistent diameter (have you got micrometer to check?) you’re never going to get good results, likewise if it has absorbed moisture (although you can dry it!)

    Premier Icon steveb
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    I’d say 90% of your cube looks pretty good, the bottom of the triangle above the “Y” is forming pretty well IME.
    The bottom ~8 layers though – looks over extruded or too hot. How many solid layers are you printing before switching to hollow infill?

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    I’ve got v4.2.1 of the slicer which is pretty old – CHEP seems to think 4.8 is as good as his own profiles.

    The layer of the skirt is 0.24mm thick, and another layer I have is 0.16mm thick. I think these correspond to me using standard and high quality which is meant to be 0.2mm and 0.12mm respectively. So they are coming out a little tall. -0.05mm z-offset? I have tried altering it, seems to make little difference but I guess I can try again.

    The elephant’s food is present all the way round, yes.

    The filament is new and was only opened 2 days ago. It’s this:

    Temp is in the middle of the range on the side of the reel – any cooler and it just won’t stick to the bed, but at 217C it sticks really well.

    Bottom/top layers are set to 7 in super quality and 4 in standard so it’s about 0.8m’s worth each time.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    Just measured the filament and it’s 1.63-1.65mm in every bit I can measure, as opposed to 1.75mm advertised, and as programmed into the profile. Hmm.

    Premier Icon zilog6128
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    Not used that filament but it should be reasonable quality. 217 sounds way too hot though… might find some tips here

    (Should be a setting in your slicer to make the first layer hotter, 5 degs maybe, than the rest of the print for adhesion purposes. The rest of the print should be as cool as you can get away with ideally)

    (Just seen your post, can you program the slicer for the undersized filament? Obviously remember to change it back when you use a new roll 😀 Few people moaning on net about the same thing with esun PLA+)

    eSun PLA+ discussion (print temperatures, strength and stringing issues) from 3Dprinting

    Premier Icon stumpy01
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    The two most important aspects of 3d printing are set up of the printer and how the part is sliced.

    First off all 217 deg is way too hot IMO for pla. I generally use 200.
    It looks like your nozzle is too far from the bed hence the gaps in the skirt, but also looks like it is over-extruding.

    I wouldn’t over-analyse the filament on the reel. It will be close enough to get you 99% off the way there, unless it’s miles out.

    What is the print bed? Glass or some kind of textured build plate? If you can’t get the print to stick either the build plate is dirty or the nozzle gap is too high or temp too low. Increasing the temp to get the print to stick will cause problems further down the line.
    FWIW I use a filament temp of 200 and bed temp of 60. I have a glass bed so use a thin layer of pva to help with bed adhesion.

    Elephant’s foot as you have on the cube points to the temp being too high. What layer height does your part cooling fan reach full speed? I run it at 50% for the first layer, then it goes up to 100%.

    Also check your first layer speed… if you don’t run it slow enough you will struggle to get it to stick. I use 20mm/s.

    Is your bed leveling automatic or manual? I only have experience of manual.

    I would….
    Find a profile for your printer. The suggestion of the Chep YouTube channel is a good one.
    Make sure the profile has a slow first layer.
    Get your nozzle height dialed in. It might help to print an item with a large footprint and adjust it while the first layer is going down. You can see the print improving in real time this way.
    Join a Facebook user group for Creality printer. Generally people on the forums are very helpful.

    Premier Icon stumpy01
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    Regarding filament…I have had this results with Geetech, Technology Outlet and Ziro. 3DQF are also good, sell direct and are UK based. But, I found there filament harder to stick to the build plate than other brands.

    Also if you really think the filament diameter is an issue, you can change it in the filament settings within Cura – this is not the print profile, but a specific setting for your chosen filament.

    Premier Icon stumpy01
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    If you are using Thingiverse or one of the other free model sites, search for “ender 3 level test” to find a quick level test print. It will enable you to easily print and adjust the nozzle height.

    This really is critical to getting good results!

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    I downloaded and attempted to install the CHEP profiles but nothing appeared to happen, so I’ll double check that, perhaps I forgot to change the machine. But I’ve changed the filament diameter and it seems to have accepted that setting.

    I’ve got the z-offset now to -0.05, which is half of the 0.1mm clearance it’s meant to have so that looks like a pretty drastic reduction to me.

    The three beads of the skirt were at least touching, with no z-offset and the filament diameter set right – but not really bonded. So I reduced the z-offset to -0.05 which has resulted in some globbing but it’s proceeding – I’m letting it run so I can see if I still have stripes.

    I’ll try cooler temps and a much slower first layer speed next.

    Elephant’s foot as you have on the cube points to the temp being too high. What layer height does your part cooling fan reach full speed?

    Er I think it’s on full the whole time.

    Premier Icon steveb
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    You’re aiming for very thin layers (0.2/0.12mm first/body), thus any error on extrusion ratio will be magnified. I run just about everything on 0.4/0.3mm. Temp for PLA 205/200 first / rest.
    Heated glass bed on mine at 65/60C. Usually I scrub over the bed with a glue stick to improve adhesion.

    Premier Icon stumpy01
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    steveb
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    I run just about everything on 0.4/0.3mm.

    Are you talking about layer height?
    Sounds too high with a 0.4mm nozzle, which is the standard size for Creality printers.
    0.3 is ok, but 0.4 will result in very bad prints.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    Yeah 0.4mm nozzle.

    Premier Icon Rockhopper
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    With a .4 nozzle I print everything at 0.2 layer height.

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    Creality Slicer 4.2 isn’t just rebadged Cura, it’s basically a branch (and a pretty misshapen one) and has some differences that can make profiles and advice incompatible or counterproductive. Basically, bin it if you haven’t already, you’re building on bad foundations, get Cura 4.8.0 and reset your firmware if you’ve changed anything in it, chalk up everything you’ve done til now as useful learning and start over completely from scratch with that as an advantage. It’s not been a waste of time but it will be to persevere with it.

    (or Prusaslicer, but IMO while it’s a slightly better software in a lot of ways, it lacks some functionality that Cura has, and doesn’t have the same community strength. I would stick with Cura. This is the SPDS vs flats debate of enders)

    Then, do an e-steps calibration. This is always worth doing before you start messing with settings, as it’s both a worthwhile tuning step and a sanity check, it can show up gross issues in setup.

    For slicer settings, don’t be tempted to fix everything at once, and don’t try and fix large issues with minor fiddling. You want to get yourself to a functional set of settings that’ll produce something that’s most of the way there, before you get down to real finetuning. Everyone makes that mistake.

    The default Cura profiles for an Ender 3 in 4.8 are actually pretty good. They can be stringy but that’s something to work on with retraction settings once you’re getting basically good prints. I’d suggest just printing with that as a first point, with the exact centre of the temp range on the filament, and seeing what happens.

    PLA isn’t overly sensitive to speed but dropping the print speed just a little to 40 again gives you margin for error. Set initial fan speed to 0% (not a massive difference tbf but helpful), top surface skin layers to 1, turn combing to “not in skin” or “all” (makes your top layer prettier). IIRC these changes alone ought to get you a decent print and good enough to start to finesse from. Personally I don’t use the “standard/low/super” settings at all, I just build a really good standard setting then tweak that for layer height and speed, but that might be oldfashioned.

    (there are excellent 3rd party settings but they mostly have their users’ own preferences. Frinstance I’ve not used CHEP’s latest but some of his previous ones were genuinely awful, he obviously didn’t understand some of the settings he’d messed with at all. And remember that a settings file for a different Cura variant might have weirdness due to some architectural change- 4.7 and 4.8 made a bunch of support changes frinstance. Basically, not worth messing with settings files that aren’t for your version or at most a .1 out. Same goes for setup guides, anything from before 2020 will probably still have good points but there used to be a lot of fighting the slicers where new improvements now make that good old advice, bad.

    Making a thicker first layer can be especially helpful when you’re troubleshooting- basically up to a point, thicker will work with a wider range of nozzle-to-bed clearance ie margin for error. it won’t necessarily work well, but it’ll give you something to work with. .2 with a .24 first layer is a pretty happy compromise imo. Totally agree with the comments on doing a levelling check print, that’s invaluable. A good way to think about it is that you can troubleshoot by printing a part, but very often good settings for learning aren’t the settings you’d use for printing.

    Specific things- The banding that you have in the cubes is more likely to be a printer hardware issue than a settings issue. It could be binding in the Z axis as that causes variation in layer thickness. An easy test of that is to very slightly loosen the 2 little bolts that hold the brass nut that the rod passes through, beside the extruder. Not rattly loose, just sort of smeary loose so that if you push the rod side to side it can move. That’ll allow a little play, which counterintuitively prevents any runout in the Z rod from causing binding and stiffness. There’s other stuff to do if you find that helps but just try it first.

    It could also be from a roller misadjustment in the Z carriage or axis- the single z rod on the ender makes that quite critical, and it’s an easy step to rush past in assembly. With the printer off, try and rotate all the rollers with your fingers. It’s OK if they can turn/skid just a little bit but that should take a fair amount of force. If any of them feel loose, or turn much easier than the others, that’s worth spending more time on. The adjustment is with the eccentric nut but there’s a bunch of opposed forces here so if you can’t get that where you want it with the eccentric, look wider at alignment. Slide them around and feel and listen for tight spots/restriction, there will probably be a little variation but shouldn’t be much.

    Oh yeah- don’t be disheartened! If this were even a few years ago you could reasonable expect to take days of total failure before you got a cube even that good. I think maybe from a couple of comments you made that you’re doing what I did, and racing ahead/assuming things a little too much. Totally natural to do when you’re a practical person, it can feel like most user/assembly guides are aimed at people who’ve barely lifted a screwdriver in their lives. But printers do have their own weirdness and it’s worth just really taking it slow and steady.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    Yeah I’m at the stage of tweaking parameters to see the effects. And strangely some of them have little effect.

    I want to get a proper feeler gauge (I have some in the garage somewhere.. not sure where) but I think the auto-bed-leveller upgrade is somewhere in my future.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    Hmm, most of the suggestions made here with respect initial layers are in the profile in Cura 4.8. Here goes.. 🙂

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    Feeler gauge isn’t as good as paper tbh- you get so much useful feedback from paper and also it can wipe oozing filament away which is otherwise an issue for levelling.

    Auto levelling is a good option, but it doesn’t do away with levelling entirely- some people use it that way and all it really means, is that all of their prints are squint. I went back to manual once I had a good flat bed, since it’s so fast to do, but it’s obviously a good way to deal with uneven beds too

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    Cura 4.8 with new profiles was no better. Used cooler temps (205) and it was still just as stripey but this time the base was curved.

    Trying the bed levelling pattern now.

    Premier Icon siwhite
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    I think you are too hot and Y axis is too high. I print PLA at 185 and with a 60 degree bed, printing onto glass. Adhesion is rarely a problem if you use glue (pritt stick is my fav) or masking tape.

    Premier Icon J273
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    I use a V2 with esun pla+ which is the best filament I’ve tried.

    You need to use 210 with it and 60 bed temp and use the paper method to level the bed. You want a the paper to have a very slight drag under the nozzle.

    Im now using cura 4.8 and works fine. There’s a esun pla+ profile on there which i use and it prints perfect.

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    @Siwhite, PLA+ needs more temp.

    molgrips
    Full Member

    Cura 4.8 with new profiles was no better. Used cooler temps (205) and it was still just as stripey but this time the base was curved.

    When you say base is curved- do you mean it curved away from the bed? If so that’s first layer adhesion. Could be too far, could be dirty- when was the last time you cleaned it?

    A good approach to bed distance is to go way too close, so that it won’t print at all- you’ll hear the extruder click/knock as it fails to extrude. Then, increase the distance and try again. You’ll come to a point first where it’s printing a very thin first layer, but probably still knocking. Go a wee bit further and you’ll get it just right. Go further still and you’ll see your first lines go “round” as you lose the compression. Basically just bracketing- going way off in one direction of failure means you know what direction to go for success.

    (levelling is 2 jobs at once but your cubes are small enough not to worry about how level the whole bed is, so just don’t worry about that at all- concentrate only on height, for now, til you know what you want there then once that’s settled go out to level)

    Like I said earlier your stripes are probably in the hardware.Remember it’s changing by only a small amount each layer, and if it doesn’t change by exactly the right amount, you get thick and thin layers, which means over and under extrusion.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    When you say base is curved- do you mean it curved away from the bed? If so that’s first layer adhesion. Could be too far, could be dirty- when was the last time you cleaned it?

    I clean it every 5 mins as I am obsessively trying to nail down the issue and I need to remove all possible variables 🙂

    Too high a nozzle seems to be the most reasonable candidate but I really have done the paper thing as instructed. I’ve measured the paper, it’s approx 0.1mm – and I’ve even tried the z offset at -0.09 which ought to make it nearly touching the glass. I’m quite worried about scratching it if I go any lower.

    This is why I want some proper feeler gauges so I can actually measure it. Also – do you do this hot or cold? Because the expansion of the nozzle seems to affect it.

    Premier Icon Rockhopper
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    I set my bed at 60 and leave it for five minutes before i start printing. I have a BL touch on my Ender 3 Pro so it does its thing before printing starts.
    I’m not sure why you are adjusting the Z offset, is that an attempt to get the nozzle closer to the bed whilst printing? use baby steps for that or even better use the adjusting wheels at the corner of the bed.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    I’m not getting an elephant’s foot exactly, any more, but what’s happening is that the flow isn’t quite right somehow when it changes direction as it fills in the floor of the cube.

    It draws the square around the edge of the cube then fills it in with diagonal lines. But when the head changes direction, it’s causing the splodging out of the sides of the cube. The extruder pauses as the head doubles back, but somehow it’s not restarting fast enough either because the line in the new direction is pretty thin for a mm or two. But somehow still splodging out of the sides of the cube on the bottom layer.

    I have raised the z-offset to +0.3 (whatever those units are) and it’s working better.

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    molgrips
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    I’m quite worried about scratching it if I go any lower.

    This is why I want some proper feeler gauges so I can actually measure it.

    Actually measuring it isn’t really valuable. It’s like tyre gauges, it doesn’t matter what the gauge says your pressure is, you’re just using it for repeatability. For the same reason personally I would step away from the Z offset and just do it mechanically.

    Don’t worry about scratching the glass, unless it’s coated- plain glass is harder than brass. You can confidently go “too close then adjust up” unless you have a soft or heat sensitive bed like say a PEI coating.

    Heat expansion- best practice is to do all your setup consistently, ie either hot or cold. But in practice I did the numbers and the actual amount of expansion is bollocks all, it should be lost in the rounding. (I always level hot, I prefer how that works out with nozzle oozing- if you do it cold and there’s any filament on the tip then you’re screwed, if you do it hot then it can be a bit annoying if it continues to ooze, but the paper will wipe it off so you can still get a true level.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    For the same reason personally I would step away from the Z offset and just do it mechanically.

    Well When I do it mechanically I only get one value because my paper is only one thickness (about 0.1mm according to my micrometer)

    I just printed a flat strip one layer thick and 0.16 was the best z offset. I tightened up the belts which has reduced the globbing when it changes direction. But this calibration cube is a little bastard. When it prints the floor the first layer looks ok but as I watch it the stuff is building up in the corners where it ends up forming globs. I don’t think it’s a well designed model in terms of final quality.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    I discovered that the rollers on the Z and Y axis are on eccentric adjusters, so I took it all apart and adjusted it so they moved as freely as possible with no play. Then I couldn’t get any printing to work at all, until I then realised that I’d set the bed height to 0.1″ rather than 0.1mm. Once I’d done that I got a really nice cube with sharp edges, but the bottom was a bit curled. Increasing the bed temp helped with this as it was quite low for PLA+ and higher temps help with adhesion. I then printed an axolotl and another cube and they both had slight layer shifts.

    It’s definitely not belt slips causing this because a) the belts are pretty tight and b) the amount of shift is nowhere near as much as one tooth on the belt. It’s in the Y axis, and there is a slight notch in the middle of the bed travel. That might have something to do with it. But otherwise this is a significant improvement. Edges and corners are sharp, and the splodging on the bottom layers is much reduced (although there’s still a tiny bit present).

    Premier Icon Rockhopper
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    The belts don’t need to be pretty tight, they need to be very tight, as in guitar string tight.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    They are as tight as I dare. But this does not look like a slipped tooth, does it? The belt pitch is a lot bigger than that offset.

    Premier Icon zilog6128
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    getting there 👍 curling is normally too big a temp difference, either printing in too cold a room or just printing too hot. You can mitigate it to some extend by increasing bed temp as you said, or otherwise increasing bed adhesion… what nozzle temp are you printing at now? Have you done a PID tune on the hotend?

    Bridging looks poor (drooping at top of X in pic) so I suspect printing too hot still?

    White PLA is actually more difficult to calibrate/print nicely than other colours, something to do with the pigment used!

    I agree it’s not belt slipping… that would be a much bigger layer shift. If the bed doesn’t move smoothly then you may have already found the culprit! Does it always occur at the same place in Z?

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    A PID tune? No, not come across that. This was printed at 214/70 and bear in mind it’s PLA+ not PLA so the temps should be higher. I can go higher with the nozzle temp, I have in the past. Although the default profile for this particular brand (eSUN PLA+) in Cura 4.8 is 210/60. Those numbers resulted in more curling on the base. So maybe 210/70 is worth a try.

    I don’t think it’s always the same place in Z. The axolotl had several shifts, lower than the one in this cube.

    Premier Icon zilog6128
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    A PID tune (of both hotend and bed) should ensure the temps you’re setting is what you’re actually getting (which will help if that is part of the issue!)

    Premier Icon Rockhopper
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    The belt (or belts) wont be slipping a tooth but if they are not tight then you won’t get accuracy. I’ve actually seem people with their Z belt on upside down (easy to do with an ender three)

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    Definitely agree that the layer shift isn’t a belt skipping a tooth, too small. Are you using the original SD card? I’ve no idea what the mechanism is that causes it but that’s often linked to layer shifts. General looseness would cause lack of precision but not usually a nice clean shift like that.

    molgrips
    Full Member

    Well When I do it mechanically I only get one value because my paper is only one thickness (about 0.1mm according to my micrometer)

    Sorry, I missed this when you posted it- but no, not correct. 80gsm Paper is an analogue measuring tool, not a single value thing- you can use it to tune to a good variation of clearances by feel- narrower gap means more drag/resistance. And that range is pretty much exactly the right range for printing with typical nozzles, “barely drags” is about as wide a gap as you’ll usually want and “scrapes but moves” is about as tight. For PLA I’m usually looking for something like “slides both ways without scrunching up when you push it under” with “pulls but doesn’t push” as the slightly tighter option, but, you build up your own markers pretty quick. Tons of feedback and information from paper basically.

    This is basically why it’s used so universally in diy printing, and why every so often people like us come along and think “but feeler gauges are more precise” and then end up using paper again. If you want a more accurate method then a dial gauge on the print head is better than feelers.

    But you are imo making a mountain out of a molehill. Bed level/clearance is a very simple thing best done with simple means. You’ve already got pretty good results on that and the gains now are just in getting it quick and simple and reliable

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    Not all paper is the same thickness. That’s a bit too vague for my mind, hence feeler gauges.

    But you are imo making a mountain out of a molehill. Bed level/clearance is a very simple thing best done with simple means.

    Feeler gauges are simple. That problem is solved, there is no issue with clearance. I’ll get the auto levelling kit thingy eventually which is the proper solution.

    Anyway, I cleaned up the rollers, which seems to have solved the notchy Y axis and I printed a pretty good cube. I reduced the bed temperature to 60 and reduced the X offset to push the print into the bed a bit.

    Then I got cocky and tried to print components for a FNAF doll. When printed small nothing stuck to the bed, but there were some fairly tiny bits that all came off so I enlarged it. Now I just found that some of the components that were fine came un-stuck from the bed after half an hour or so. That’s with it set to 70. Could it be that different models need different settings? It could be that PID is far out and that could mean the temp dipped enough to let the parts break free. I’d rather not print them on a raft because that would require a good deal of post processing.

    I would like to avoid glue on my bed if at all possible, cos it sounds messy.

    Premier Icon stumpy01
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    Regarding bed leveling, you always see people on forums who are struggling mention feeler gauges. Virtually all of the replies say don’t use them, paper works better.
    I am in the paper camp and virtually never have to test the bed level once it’s done. Last time I did it was when I replaced my nozzle.

    Regarding the small parts not sticking…it sounds a bit like you are making things difficult for yourself. Just get some bed adhesion material on there. A can of 3DLac is pricey but works well and washes off in seconds. We use it at work on our Ultimaker.
    At home I started off with a pritt stick smeared on the bed when the bed gets to temperature. Problem with this is that it is quite lumpy and you end up with the underside of the print being a bit coarse.
    I now use pva glue mixed with a small amount of water. I put this over the bed and then smooth it evenly over and use the heated bed to dry it. Probably need to wash it off and replace every 4-6 weeks.

    Without wanting to sound patronising, as a beginner, you are making it hard for yourself not using anything to help the print stick. Do it one thing at a time. When you have more of a feel for it, then try things like ditching the bed adhesion.
    I’ve had my printer over 2 years and still can’t be arsed with printing without bed adhesion.
    And we use it on our work machine which is a £3500 piece of kit and has auto bed levelling.

    Also what speed is the first layer set to? Slow it right down. 15 or 20mm/sec for the first layer will give you more chance of it staying stick.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    Without wanting to sound patronising, as a beginner, you are making it hard for yourself not using anything to help the print stick.

    Yes, the aim of the game isn’t just to get good prints, it’s to understand what’s going on. That means I will go down certain roads and test everything out before moving on to a different tactic. When I post on here I don’t just want to be told a solution, I am asking for ideas and experience, which you have given (thanks) and I will take into consideration 🙂

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