Did a straw poll today and I was the only one of 7 of us to admit to deliberately heading out to large open car parks to slip/slide and handbrake turn around for entertainment!

I used the old 'it'll help me know how to control it if I do skid in real life' excuse as they all looked blankly at me.

Remember getting chased off the (empty)car park at Timex in Dundee by security for having fun getting it sideways!

M_F – to drive at a speed that was appropriate for the conditions when everyone else was going way faster than that would have been a more dangerous option. I do not expect you to understand this though.

So you drive faster than you know to be safe 'because everyone else is'? No, you are right – I do not understand that mentality. I don't think any driving instructor would recommend that to a pupil either.

Didn't think you'd understand. I was correct in that assumption. Let me explain it to you.

So you drive faster than you know to be safe 'because everyone else is'?

There is more that one source of danger on a snowy road. To drive at a speed which minimised the chances of sliding is sometimes more dangerous than driving a bit faster. This additional danger comes about because you would be forcing the muppets that are driving too fast to brake harshly and increase the chances of them losing control and crashing into you. Simple really, but I still don't expect you to understand someone else point of view, nor even attempt to.

Did a straw poll today and I was the only one of 7 of us to admit to deliberately heading out to large open car parks to slip/slide and handbrake turn around for entertainment!

Going to be honest here. I think its an ideal time to learn how your car behaves and how quickly it looses traction based on steering input and accelerator/brake variation.

Yes- you cant do if theres other cars close by but with common sense it far outweighs anyone saying 'its reckless' etc 🙂

I remember the first time I did it, I was amazed/slightly scared by how quickly the front end let go/understeer dramatically.

There is more that one source of danger on a snowy road.

There is more than one source of danger on any road.

And I understand that people drive too fast and to drive more slowly may cause other people to have to brake, but you still put yourself and others in danger by driving at that speed – proved by the fact you almost lost control of the car. Are you saying you made an incorrect judgement to drive faster because you thought it presented less danger than driving at a speed you thought to be safe?

+1 for that – I'm not daft enough to deliberately slide it around on a road with other traffic/pedestrians etc around but sliding it round the car park yesterday was great fun, harmless (big open space, no-one else there, no kerbs or other obstacles) and it allowed me to get a feel for how my big FWD car handled in snow and ice while under power/braking etc.

Predictably safe driving in my old Discovery with AT tyres just running a little less air.
Why everyone thinks I should be going fast? It four wheel drive yes, but it's four wheel stopping like every other car 😕

Yep. Then if it ever happened on a road your first reaction wouldnt be PANIC and freeze up. As in Finland where drivers learn car control first.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that I chose to drive at that speed because it was the safest option, but even the safest option is dangerous sometimes.

I did not have chance to have any 'fun' driving as my driving test got cancelled due to the weather 👿

I have found that snow helps you to

practice what happens in a FWD car when it goes sideways
turn round in small areas without having to do a 3 point turn.

However I did get stuck yesterday during the course of my work. I had to attend an incident and went down an unfamiliar road. I'd checked it on a map and a satellite image but it didn't reveal how steep both sides of the valley I was driving into was. By the time I thought of going back I wasn't able to. I couldn't get out either side after slithering down a tight lane.

I have never been happier to see a V8 engine. A 4l one in an old Range rover. The guy (Charlie – thanks!) attached a rope to my car and pulled me up a 300yd long snow covered 1in3 track without a hint of wheelspin from his vehicle. Truly impressive. Got his address so he'll be sent something in the post as a huuuuge thankyou.

I'm saying that I chose to drive at that speed because it was the safest option, but even the safest option is dangerous sometimes.

That statement can't be proven because we don't know that driving at a safer speed (other traffic speeds discounted) would have caused a different danger to the one you created by driving too quickly. You have just assumed it would.

Nor can it be disproven. Go for it – give it a go.

I have never been happier to see a V8 engine. A 4l one in an old Range rover. The guy (Charlie – thanks!) attached a rope to my car and pulled me up a 300yd long snow covered 1in3 track without a hint of wheelspin from his vehicle. Truly impressive. Got his address so he'll be sent something in the post as a huuuuge thankyou.

Good old classic rangerovers, used to love ours.

I can't just like you can't.

What would a driving instructor tell a student to do in those circumstances?…

On the way back down the M1 on Sunday night we stopped at London Gateway services to swap over driving duties. The empty carpark was sheet ice/snow.

My missus seemed to think it was most unreasonable that I immediately started playing about. She didn't seem to understand that:-

I'm male, in a torquey RWD car, in an empty, icy, carpark. It's in my genes to start trying to do donuts!

Absolutely NOT something for the public road though.

Tell them to stay at home.

My thoughts exactly Goan but I didn't even bother suggesting that to you as you would have said it was such an important journey.

So what would a driving instructor tell them to do if they were already in the middle of a journey and found themselves suddenly in those conditions?

Tell them to choose the safest option and makes sure they had the skills to correct and skids that will occur.

I'm male, in a torquey RWD car, in an empty, icy, carpark. It's in my genes to start trying to do donuts!

In a world of mens face creams, man bags, testosterone draining dull MPV's and self satisfying smug STW road safety morons it's great to hear that!!!

Although I have to take exception at the male thing, as my wife would probably have done it too.

Agreed not on a public road though. My car park fun has certainly helped my driving recently as I've been caught in 2 freakish blizzards with very sketchy road conditions. I have kept my speed down but I do know how the car feels and reacts to my inputs if something untoward happens.

Still want a V8 rangie though. 😀

Tell them to choose the safest option and makes sure they had the skills to correct and skids that will occur.

And almost cause other road users to crash in the meantime? You did make a series of very bad decisions on this one didn't you?

This was the exit from the Trafford Centre yesterday.

In a world of mens face creams, man bags, testosterone draining dull MPV's and self satisfying smug STW road safety morons it's great to hear that!!!

Oh yeah!

It should be a crime for a heterosexual man NOT to attempt a handbrake turn when it snows.

M_F – explain that comment will you. Tell me what decisions were bad and why, then tell me what I should have done better.

You chose to drive in conditions you knew to be unsafe. You chose to drive at a speed that was too quick for the conditions. You almost lost control of your own car putting you and any passengers at risk. You caused the articulated lorry driver behind to panic which could have caused even more danger to other road users.

And all because you thought it safer to keep up with other road users you knew to be going too quickly rather than drive at a speed you knew to be safe.

I was on my way home and conditions deteriorated.

Why was my speed too fast for the traffic conditions?

Hitting the same patch of ice is what caused the lorry driver to be faced with the same problem that I was.

Explain why my decision to drive at that speed was less safe than driving slower? You've already said that you cant.

Then finish answering the above question – What would you have done differently?

I know you're trolling BTW – I'm just bored as I'm snowed in.

Why was my speed too fast for the traffic conditions?

It was to quick for the road conditions, not the traffic conditions.

Didn't you see the ice?

I remain quite astounded that an ex-driving instructor would defend driving more quickly than the road conditions dictate just to keep up with other road users.

What would I have done differently? Drive at a speed I felt was safe for the road conditions, not at a speed to keep up with other road users I felt were driving too quickly.

I'm off out later for a good drive and shall be having fun in the farms and quarries. 😀

Thing is you cant have road conditions without traffic conditions.

I told you that you wouldn't understand. I wouldn't expect any soft southern shandy drinker to understand.

I've explained already why driving at a speed to suit road conditions would have been more dangerous than my chosen option.

I put it to you that your chosen option of driving at 20mph when all around are driving at 60-70mph is more dangerous than my option. It's all about balancing the risks you see.

You ASSUMED driving at a safe speed would have been more dangerous. You PROVED that driving at a dangerous speed was dangerous.

You balanced risks and still put yourself and others in danger.

I think we need to accept that it's ICY. It gets slippery, sometimes the car will slip in ice. You need the skills to handle it, if you come out the other side you did well, if you don't then you've not. There's little else that can be argued in the absence of field testing facilities.

And you assumed that it would have been less dangerous – this in the absence of all of the information and based on a different experiential and skills set.

Can you prove that the speed I was driving at was dangerous?

Anyway I've made my point. So will leave you to get yourself dizzy by going round in circles for the rest of the day.

Can you prove that the speed I was driving at was dangerous?

You almost lost control of the car. I know you are an experienced driver and have the skills to correct the loss of control but how do you think the other cars around you would respond to seeing a vehicle fishtailing in front of them?

Not trolling here Goan, but why was everyone driving too fast?

Such collectively bad judgement seems unlikely. I drove South from Newtonmore on Sunday on the A9 in pretty atrocious conditions and all the drivers behaved impeccably. There was a long queue in front and a long queue behind, everyone driving patiently in convoy, all keeping a safe distance allowing for drivers to pull off to clear windscreens and wipers, allowing them back into the queue. There were no stupid attempts to overtake on snow-bound dual carriageways. Everyone in that queue drove with common sense and with a concern for, and awareness of, others at speeds between 15 and 30mph until things began to clear south of Dunkeld.

The traffic going north appeared to be doing the same. I always expect to see one or two idiots in such conditions, but to contend that the entire driving population on a particular road is behaving negligently seems somehow implausible.

how do you think the other cars around you would respond to seeing a vehicle fishtailing in front of them?

I'm not sure he can be blamed for how others react?

Such collectively bad judgement seems unlikely.

Seriously, are you seriously saying that? Do you live in a parallel universe?

Car starting to fishtail does not equal almost losing control of the car. Years of being a boy racer and kart racer has seen to that.

You ASSUMED driving at a safe speed would have been more dangerous. You PROVED that driving at a dangerous speed was dangerous.

Impressive trolling m_f. Now if you can just relate this to the assumption and proofs of climate change then you should have a perfect storm 🙄

I'm not sure he can be blamed for how others react?

Just like he shouldn't drive at a speed to keep up with the other drivers in the first place – he made his decision to drive at that speed to minimise risk of other drivers being caught out be his relatively slow speed had he driven at what he considered a safe speed.

Car starting to fishtail does not equal almost losing control of the car. Years of being a boy racer and kart racer has seen to that.

Of course, a fishtailing car is always perfectly in control.

And you haven't answered – what effect do you think your fishtailing car would have on the responses of other road users.

Do you live in a parallel universe?

No. Why?

Stuartie_C – It was Glasgow. Conditions were interesting in that they didn't look that bad, but there were actually truly horrendous – lots of black ice. Add that to the fact that Glasgow had been at a standstill all day due to the M8 and M73 being closed. It is thee worst combination of road and traffic conditions that I've ever been in and it was taking ALL of my concentration and skill to keep the thing going straight and stop some nugget from crashing into us.

M_F – I think they were too busy trying to keep control of their own vehicles to concentrate on mine.

OK.

Sounds very different to the A9 conditions – deep snow lying on an already frozen base and a near-blizzard. Much more obviously dangerous.

I'll sit back and enjoy the discussion now. 😀