Any sea kayakers in the house?

I bought a couple of sit on tops (rtm tempos) a few years ago, brilliant for bimbling about but I struggle to keep up with the others on proper sea kayaks. So I have started to look at buying a sea kayak.

What do you have, suitable for 90kg size 12 feet, fairly stable as I don’t fancy self rescuing, pretty bombproof as we explore caves and the rocks are sharp.

I have started looking at specs at dealers, really want to be able to do say 20km in flattish coastal water. Atm we do 10km in c 4 hours but a few swim stops. For the med so no tides but the wind whips up in the day as the heat comes in.

Any advice appreciated, costly mistakes to be avoided.

I would go and get some coaching, it will make you a much safer paddler and they usually have a variety of boats to try.

Have you got a local club which you can join? That may be another option.

Dagger stratos.

Sounds like to want a plastic rather that GRP/Carbon boat.

You would not go far wrong with something like a P&H Scorpio. Plenty of them about as they a pretty standard kayak school boat. They now come in different volumes – I suspect you might prefer the HV (high volume) version at 90kg. Loads 2nd hand – check the skeg functionality if buying secondhand – early ones had issues with the rope jamming and there as a retrofit to sort this.

If it is less aout long loaded journeys and you want something a little more agile for moving around rocks the P&H Delphin might be worth a look. Scorpio is fine boat though.

I’ve hired numerous double sea kayaks, both grp and poly over the years and whilst I’ve found the former faster and more responsive, we’ve pretty much got on with whatever make was being sat in at the time.

If you like sit on though, it’s leftfield and spendy but check out hobie Mirage drive kayaks. Quite simply astounding, and a very different experience, but in a good way. So fast and relatively effortless.

Mirage vs paddles

Watch from 1min in.

Edit to add that covered about 25k in a hobie off the Dorset coast a few years ago.

size 12 feet,

I never noticed Neil, but with feet that size you don’t need flippers/fins! 😉

That Mirage looks great!
Until youv’e only got a few cms of water under you, then what? Take an emergency paddle maybe?

Ok ta good call on the stratos, garish colours tho. Yes I would like to get some training as we are v safety conscious, there’s been a heli rescue every weekend this summer, mostly people jumping off rocks and misjudging it.

I’ve looked at and treated several sea/touring kayaks over the last few months, just ordered one of these:

https://www.wavesport.com/en/products/hydra-core-whiteout

I’m 87kg and also with size 12’s.

Ta for Scorpio tip, it’s 28kg though so 5kg more than my sit on top. Think I d go to 25kg max as I struggle on my own to put a 23kg sit on top on the car.

Mirage looks cool, but we beach the kayaks a lot in surf I can’t see the paddles lasting long.

Tbh anything that cuts through waves as opposed to my sit on top that tracks well at 5m, but rides over them, will be a massive improvement.

Belive you can pop the Mirage drive unit out quite easily, for beaching. I must have, but can’t recall.

Hydra core – cheers looks lush. Any chance you could post up feedback when you get it.

In the NDK (Nigel Dennis Kayaks) range you might fit in a Romany Surf (Composite) or Romany Sport (plastic). If those are 2 small then the Romany Excel (Composite) would be big enough.
When I went from a 14ft touring kayak (Islander Bolero) to a ‘proper’ sea kayak it was the fit that I found most difficult to get right. You need to at least sit in one to find out, preferably have a demo as well. I’m lighter and with smaller feet than you but ended up with a Romany Surf as I just felt more comfortable in it than any other boat I tried. Had it for a couple of years now and haven’t once regretted pushing the budget. Most of my paddles are in the Solent and it handles the wind over tide chop there brilliantly. Lots of (much better than me) paddlers in the club have various Romany versions as well.
If you any where near Dorset I can recommend Southern Sea Kayaks. Had great advise from Steve over a number of visits and (long) phone conversations.

In the med with a plastic boat – just be a bit careful of the storage and the heat. I worked at a sailing school back in the day that had toppers living on racks. All the boats had big ridges across their hulls where they have softened in the heat and formed around the bars of the rack. I’d have been pissed off if they were my boat.

I really struggle with my size 12. A Scorpio HV is ok but a bit of a tank. I loved a Romany Surf on holiday but it is a composite. I currently have a Valley Etain 17.5 which just fit my feet with slim palm boots. Best bet is to try a demo somewhere.

Interesting thread. We currently have 2 Wavesport Scooters we have enjoyed in surf, but not so great for journeys. I have paddled proper kayaks in past, but my wife will only paddle a SOT. Thinking of Perception Triumph, and fitting rudders. Any thoughts? Will be for coastal day trips in Dorset/Cornwall/Devon.

A bit of a thread derail but I am currently lusting after Surfski (something like a Epic v8 Pro).

I’ve just moved to a bit of a mecca for them and it is very much on my list of new toys. Nice and light OP – just not great for fiddling around caves!

Romany excel – nice but spendy. I ‘ll look at second hand this winter. My sit on tops are scratched to near death from beaching on rocks. If I spent 2k on something I would worry about it.

Just another question if I may, do you all wash down kayaks after salt water use? I do, but the others don’t.

What do you have, suitable for 90kg size 12 feet, fairly stable as I don’t fancy self rescuing, pretty bombproof as we explore caves and the rocks are sharp.

I’d assume whatever you get you might need to self rescue. Very stable boats are great, but they lead to (false?) sense of security and less practice at self-rescue. The most confident paddlers I know are those with a good roll – they know that 98% of capsizes are just a refreshing dunking.

Just another question if I may, do you all wash down kayaks after salt water use? I do, but the others don’t.

I live in scotland, the kayak lives o/side – the weather usually takes care of that for me. I do wash down throw ropes, seats, bouyancy aid, etc – but the actual boat, I don’t.

Good point ‘re rescue practice, we kayak alongside cliffs with no near place of safety. I fell in once last year, really must practice rescue again.

Brilliant ideas so far, saved me loads of time.

How much of what you want to do is the bimbling about vs the keeping up with proper sea kayaks? Big difference to what you might want.
Everyone has different views on what the best compromise is, but it is hard to look past things like the P&H Delpin or Nigel Dennis Romany Sport as start points.
If you want shorter (bimbling) things but still like kayak-like Pyranha Virgo might be worth a look.

I have a Necky Manitou down here in Torbay which meets my needs for similar trips to those you describe. I rock hop quite a lot so have stuck with plastic. I think I paid £4-500 for it?

Definitely get some training done (and your VHF as well if you can). I did a brilliant w/e on the Isle of Wight being taught by level 4 instructor trainees for free as they needed students to train. I’m sh1te at rolling so carry a paddle float as a backup.

Ta the manitou looks good, is that the 14?

I have a vhf licence from sailing, there is some mobile reception where we go but sods law won’t be when we need it.

Looking forward to trying some rolls, I watched the yt vids on self rescue with the float.

Looking like I ‘ll keep the sit on tops for bimbling and get a proper sea kayak for longer trips.

I’m 100kg with size 46 feet (but wear larger boots with my dry suit on).

Currently paddling a P&H Delphin mostly. Great boat and pretty bomb proof, have been bounced off some big rocks. Done limited lightweight overnights where the Delphin has kept up with longer boats buts it’s no tourer.
Skeg is a bit rubbish but for the sort of paddling I do is rarely used.

Would love a Romany Surf but can’t justify it given I do more canoeing than kayaking these days.

I’ve got the 13 poolman, not sure you can get them anymore. 14 looks better with 2 hatches and better hatch seals.

@poolman – absolutely go get some proper training. Self rescuing is actually easily done when you’ve practiced it a lot of times, but if you’re getting into this then unless you’re competent then you can be not just a danger to yourself but to others too.

The training is fun and if you join a club and commit then it’s pretty cheap too (and a great way to meet people who’ll accompany you on trips if that’s what you’re after). I’d definitely do that over a week’s intensive course or the likes.

If you knock yourself out on your MTB then you can still breathe. If you knock yourself out caving in a kayak then unless you’re with people then it’s all over. So make sure you’re competent and skilled if going by yourself.

Not zero risk – but sensible risk.

As has already been mentioned once above I would take a look at stable plastic surf ski’s like the epic v5 v7 or nelo 510. They will be quicker than most sea kayaks, easy to remount and perfect somewhere with warm water. Only issue is be careful of the rudder if you are in shallow water. You will need some basic training but far less than you would for a sea kayak as they have a rudder to steer and no risk of getting trapped inside or not being able to remount. Massive bonus that you will be able to catch some swell and waves with them that you couldnt with a plastic sea kayak.

Ok ta those surf skis look brilliant, I am sure I have seen them at the local club so will check them out. Just watched the demo videos I dream of those speeds.

‘re training spot on, my mate swam into a rock on Sunday and gashed his chest quite badly. It’s so dark in the caves the waves dunked him down on a rock. Could easily have knocked his head.

Thanks all, much appreciated.

I’ve got an Epic V10s for sale cheap as have other boats – PM me

I’m a new sea kayaker, same weight range and foot size as you and just got a perception essence 17. Pretty pleased with it so far

Rocks and swell/waves I tend to stick my helmet on. Never used to but I guess overtime I have become more cautious. Start a new thread for the merits of wearing helmets 🤣

I regard sea kayaks as being the boat equivalent of a penny farthing.

Yes, they can do all sorts of wonderful things, but you need a high level of skill to get the best out of them, and doing a self rescue can be flaky if you hit bad conditions after 5-6 hours in rough water.

The answer is what we call in Australia, a surf ski. They are a sit on boat, but built to handle the same sort of conditions as a sea kayak. They’re narrow, very fast and long. It doesn’t matter if you get tipped off because it’s easy to clamber back on and you don’t have to drain the bloody thing like a sea kayak.

I used to paddle out to the Barrier Reef on my ski to play in the big water at the edge and I felt much safer than when I did it on my Nordkapp.

You’d need a wet suit though.

Pics of my old surf ski at my mate’s (he bought it when I left Oz) It’s a Haydn Kenny and weighs bugger all even though it’s now about 45 years old.

EDIT: Dammit, now I miss not living on the beach in the Tropics anymore. 🙂

I’ll echo what @achiltern said about the Hobies though. They are good boats and those foot operated flipper paddles are astounding. Just make sure to tie them to the boat though.

I’ve been out to the reef on one of them too (my mate’s boat) The nice thing is you can get a sailing rig too.

I regard sea kayaks as being the boat equivalent of a penny farthing.

Yes, they can do all sorts of wonderful things, but you need a high level of skill to get the best out of them, and doing a self rescue can be flaky if you hit bad conditions after 5-6 hours in rough water.

The answer is what we call in Australia, a surf ski. They are a sit on boat, but built to handle the same sort of conditions as a sea kayak. They’re narrow, very fast and long. It doesn’t matter if you get tipped off because it’s easy to clamber back on and you don’t have to drain the bloody thing like a sea kayak.

I get the point you are making, but I think there are a few downsides to surfski’s. In my experience its not if, but when you get tipped off. There is nowhere to carry any significant gear. I’m not sure how suited to use in caves they are as the OP suggested (HDPE v’s GRP? length? rudder etc). There are sit on top kayaks like the RTM Disco, and Midway which sort of bridge the gap between classic SOT and sea kayak (although some might say they are the worst of both worlds).

@poly getting tipped off is no big deal in a surf ski. You’re back on and away in seconds.

However the only times I remember that happening was beaching in surf conditions. My personal experience was that the surfski was a better seaboat than the 2 Nordkapps I had – which were the state of the art back then.

I don’t know about caves, but I’ve bashed off coral reefs with my ski. You’re not trapped in it like a kayak so you can bail before it hits anything hard anyway, so there’s just the weight of the ski and it bounces off.

I just used to lash my gear to the deck. Mainly water, food, goggles, snorkel, and flippers. Obviously not a touring set up.

I’ve got an Epic V10s for sale cheap as have other boats – PM me

Pm’ed you Colin

Thanks all, the rtm disco looks interesting.

Surf skis too, but as noted not very manouverable inside caves.

We really like kayaking alongside cliffs, stopping off on beaches for swims, exploring caves, and then racing back. I suppose anything can do all of these, but my sit on top handles like a bath tub.

I think the perspectives of sit on tops is skewed by the god awful plastic bath tubs they sell in this country that are only good for short distances in calm water and weigh a ton. They should be recycled into wheely bins as soon as possible. 🙂

As for a surf ski being manoeuvrable in a cave, that’s really a function of length rather than type of boat. I wouldn’t take my racing ski shown above into a tight cave if there wasn’t room to turn, but then I wouldn’t take a similar length Nordkapp in either.

I had shorter skis in Oz as well, KW surf skis about 11-12′ long. They were good for that sort of thing, manoeuvrable and rugged for beach use and bashing on coral bombies.

They were also good enough for a short paddle to islands on the reef. When we lived in Townsville (Queensland), my wife and I used to paddle over to Magnetic Island (about 5 miles) while our kids took the ferry over for their Nippers session with the Surf Lifesaving club there.

Anyhow, if any of the OZ STWers know if anyone is still making the KW pattern surf ski, I’d love to know (or if there is a mould available)

Ooo is this turning into a surfski vs kayak debate? If it is can I throw in my normal 2p.

It’s important to consider where the craft came from. Modern surfskis developed from the lifesaving world. They were designed in warm climates (and water) to get out through large surf quickly and rescue someone. Modern sea kayaks developed from craft to designed to travel distance and hunt in cold water in all conditions.

Skis used to always be more unstable, you wouldn’t want to stop and eat your lunch in one, although modern designs seem to be more stable. Skis used to be faster but here modern sea kayak design has improved their speed. Skis are easier to re-enter but a kayak is faster to self-rescue (if you roll) and you stay in the boat.

I’m not saying one is better than the other, for every argument there is a counter argument. I’ve paddled a lot of craft over the last few decades including sit on tops, paddle boards, skis, kayaks and canoes. The only thing I don’t like is intolerance to fellow paddlers and the only thing I know is there is enough water out there for all of us.

Stay safe and enjoy the paddling!

db

@db sorry I wasn’t trying to start a war. Anyway, I’m on both sides. 🙂

I should point out my experience isn’t recent. I had to stop paddling many years ago because I got paralysed on my right side and it took time to recover.

But I do think the UK perceptions of surf skis is wrong.

As for stability at rest, IMO they’re more stable, just dangle your legs over the side.

I preferred the surf ski to my sea kayaks because you’re more part of the water. It’s a wetter boat, but you dress for that.

I suppose the fundamental difference is kayakers try to stay dry, with a surf ski you expect to be wet and dress for it.

Stability was important because we had nasties like box jellyfish and the like. Do an eskimo roll into one of those things and you’d have a face full. You wouldn’t be alive for long after that, and often there would be acres of them on the water just below the surface. Just a touch from a broken tendril floating on the surface brings excruciating pain.