Any planning experts in? Not sure whether to take no for an answer…

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  • Any planning experts in? Not sure whether to take no for an answer…
  • Premier Icon Stoner
    Subscriber

    depends where you are.

    If you live in south Worcestershire you can do what the **** you like right now because the councillors & council officers are a bunch of incompetent ***** and don’t have a housing policy in place at the moment so it’s a developer’s free-for-all.

    Premier Icon franksinatra
    Subscriber

    The council should have a Local Plan which will indicate areas where they will be encouraging development. Would be worth looking a that as well as seeing if anyone else has built similar properties in the local area.

    packer
    Member

    Essex. Braintree district council. Rural location, on the outskirts of a small historic village.

    Premier Icon martinhutch
    Subscriber

    Find out if that ‘guideline’ is actually inclued in their local development plan, or just a rule of thumb.

    I imagine if the officers that definite from the off then you’d have to put a lot of effort into getting it to committee and agreed, as any application would go with recommendation to refuse.

    Premier Icon thepurist
    Subscriber

    The local plan will show which policies apply to your proposed site. If you’re going to apply then you need to show that your house complies with their policies, and if it comes to a formal application they (and all the NIMBY neighbours) need to show why it doesn’t comply with the same policies if they’re refusing permission.

    cvilla
    Member

    Worth asking any local planning experts (not the LA) and also check if there are any restrictions on the current house. Research first to get your facts together before an application.
    Do it help you live/work in the local area and perhaps look after family in future?

    I think the plan you are looking for is called the unitary development plan.
    Search for the one for your area.

    packer
    Member

    Thanks for the replies.
    I just located the councils “Core Strategy” document and read it.
    My location is outside the “village envelope” and hence is officially in what they term “Countryside”.
    They have a very short section on Countryside development which simply says:

    “Development outside town development boundaries, village
    envelopes and industrial development limits will be strictly
    controlled to uses appropriate to the countryside, in order to
    protect and enhance the landscape character and biodiversity,
    geodiversity and amenity of the countryside.”

    I am guessing that my dwelling does not meet these criteria (although I’m struggling to think of anything which actually would).
    Seems like a non-starter then 🙁

    dbcooper
    Member

    I am not a planner or architect, but we recently had an extension approved in a conservation area. The planners emailed our architects many times outlining that it would rejected and what we needed to change to get it passed. Our advisors were not phased by this, we stuck to our guns and it got approved despite them telling us it would not.
    I think they like to try and talk/intimidate you out of doing it when maybe you might well be within the rules, its just they don’t like the idea..
    We used an architect and planning consultant, spent about £700 in total. Our planning consultant is ex council planning so knew all the tricks.
    Local councils will use a design guide, which you can get a copy of, so this helps you to get started. But my real advice is talk to a local expert outwith of the council planners.

    packer
    Member

    Thanks dbcooper – good advice

    packer
    Member

    Went for a walk-in chat at the planning office to see if it would be possible to build a new dwelling for myself in the very large garden of my parents house (with their blessing).
    He very quickly said no way forget it, apparently because the house it’s outside the village so new dwellings are a no-no.

    Seems odd to me since we are constantly hearing about how many X thousand new homes new to be built in the SE of England and how planning laws are being relaxed.

    So should I leave it there, or is it worth taking it further?
    I suppose all I could do next would be get some plans drawn up and do a proper application? Which would of course cost money.
    Anything else I could do first?
    Am I wasting my time?

    dannyh
    Member

    Thanks dbcooper – good advice

    Unless you’re the poor sod next door who has their house devalued as a result.

    Granted you are talking about something that probably won’t impact someone else, but in other cases ‘knowing the tricks’ to get your own way might not be without impact on others.

    Just saying, like.

    mark90
    Member

    Some friends own a plot of land, 4th in a row of 5. All the others have houses and outbuildings, as do the couple of large plots opposite, some have business and residential use. But they can’t get planning permission as it’s outside the village boundary, and therefore not in the development plan. Crazy really as the empty plot looks like a missing tooth. Just biding their time. A change of councillors would help.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    franksinatra wrote:

    The council should have a Local Plan

    😆

    Though even here in South Worcestershire permission has been refused at appeal because the site was in open countryside away from any settlement – if you have a basic issue like that then you’re unlikely to be able to get permission, even with the current planning laws, even if there is no local plan and however clever your consultant might be.

    project
    Member

    A huge multi million pound glass bottle factory was built in cheshire without the planning permission on the site of two power stations, council threw toys out of planning box, but it still got through, now employs hundreds and well done to them.

    Build a house its family land and say sod em.

    Premier Icon richmars
    Subscriber

    Don’t forget the planning regs are there so we can cycle in the country side. I’m not saying planners are always right, but they are trying to protect the country side we all enjoy.

    The local plan shouldn’t specifically exclude individual and small scale developments in the “countryside” areas (although it should offer a degree of protection from entire fields being turned into estates). They might regard additional one off homes as “windfall” for purposes of meeting their housing targets, but in all reality one house isn’t going to matter one way or the other in terms of figures.

    You should be able to check if there is a neighbourhood plan in place, and if not you might even be able to become responsible for the neighbourhood planning under the NPPF (using localism legislation the way it was intended)

    The current permitted development rights for building extensions are pretty generous – could you make that work?

    “Build a house its family land and say sod em.”

    As you watch it being demolished by the Council when they take enforcement action

    konagirl
    Member

    Most local plans that I have read explicitly state new development should not occur in the countryside areas, except for “uses appropriate to the countryside” which generally means uses that are required for the rural economy. I think that’s pretty normal. Exceptions would be, for example, farmers or equestrian owners who need to be available on site at all hours, or perhaps accommodation to recreational facilities like outward bound centres.

    This is a major stumbling block imo, unless you hold employment that requires you to be located there.

    Additionally you need to think about how the proposed house would fit in to its surroundings – it is a very different prospect to build on a garden at the end of a dead end road with no public rights of way around, than to build next door to a neighbour or a main road where you would disrupt the vista of the landscape (public amenity) and potentially access to light, amongst other planning considerations.

    If you simply need somewhere to live affordably, can you ask about temporary accommodation in caravans on the site? East Cambs allow people to live within the curtilage of a property as long as the house provides the main use (i.e. kitchen, main bathroom). Or as above, look to extend the house.

    project
    Member

    just keep appealing, and dont let them on the land, quite a lot of people win their appeals.

    agent007
    Member

    If it’s against local development policy then (unless you’re Tesco’s or a developer with lots of funds and a whole department of planning experts to throw at the problem) then forget it – planning officers are normally proper jobsworths and won’t bend the rules.

    agent007
    Member

    quite a lot of people win their appeals.

    and spend a vast sum of money, stress and workload in the process.

    konagirl
    Member

    I also meant to say that another (very good imo) reason that you might not get planning permission in your situation is because it would set a precendent. Although each application would be assessed on its own merit, once one proposal has been given an exception, it tends to open the flood gates for similar proposals (where there might not be as good a reason for the exception but the precedent stands). This is particularly true of the south where house prices mean a very substantial payout in return for your back garden.

    As I said, ideally you need to show that your employment requires you to be located there.

    packer
    Member

    Thanks for the input everyone.
    Having read more about it now it seems very unlikely that permission for a new dwelling would be granted in this location under the current guidelines.

    The mobile home route is interesting though… looking into that now.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    oliverd1981 wrote:

    using localism legislation the way it was intended

    I’m fairly sure the intention was for it to look good, but not be used.

    Premier Icon stimpy
    Subscriber
    Premier Icon Fantombiker
    Subscriber

    Isn’t there some stealth way of doing it….something like you build a stable/hen house with toilet or something, then after 7 years or so apply for change of use and then extend for accommodation? Someone told me this works in rural area. (Local chap refused PP for mansion on farm land , just built huge hen farm, hardly any hens in it at the mo)

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    Scott wrote:

    I can help if you’d like.
    I hope aracer will vouch…

    Indeed – I only pretend to know about planning law, stimpy actually does.

    Fantombiker – somebody tried something like that near here, I think the building was officially a garage, they were made to pull it down.

    Think you’ll find it’s 10 years for established use for a dwelling.

    Edukator
    Member

    A friend built a house in his in-laws’ garden. Fine until the divorce when sorting out who owned and got what was complicated. He ended up with the house and part of the plot and still has the in-laws as neighbours while his ex lives in peace miles from the mess.

    sharkbait
    Member

    @dbc: that ws an extension to an existing home, which does has certain rights. Your architects were probably told in the first place that an acceptable plan might be OK, they just had to keep altering the plan to fit in with what the planners would accept.

    OP – if the planner has said no that quickly then I’d probably forget it. Your money though so fill your boots.

    CaptJon
    Member

    You can search for things which have been given permission, or are under consider, in your area here. See if anything similar to your idea has gone through recently.

    I’d also be asking the council planners what the hell “appropriate to the countryside” actually means.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    aracer wrote:

    Fantombiker – somebody tried something like that near here, I think the building was officially a garage, they were made to pull it down.

    Here we go – not exactly pull it down, but close
    http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/9976298.Woman_loses_bid_to_keep_house____hidden____in_garage/?ref=rc

    captjon wrote:

    I’d also be asking the council planners what the hell “appropriate to the countryside” actually means.

    Preferably using those exact words. Though I think we’ve already covered that issue anyway.

    Premier Icon stimpy
    Subscriber

    Am loving some of the responses to the OP.

    As mentioned OP, if you’d like to chew it over I can help.

    Cheers aracer – still trying to find time in the work diary to get up for a ride!

    hh45
    Member

    Mainly good advice here but main point is that planners tend to say ‘no’ first and then ask ‘what is the question?’

    You really cannot be put off by one non binding meeting like you had. you need to speak to a local planning consultant / architect and then if they are helpful, spend a few £’00 making an application. The officer may we have been correct but he may have trying to fob you off. Spending money is the only way to find out. you will never find a site as cheap as your parent’s garden!

    A new home in a garden help meet their quota (v marginally), is arguably on brownfield land and may be v close to the village envelope.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    hh45 wrote:

    Spending money is the only way to find out.

    Alternatively you could always check what the local plan says, whether the council has a 5 year housing land supply (hence whether everything in the local plan applies or para 14 of NPPF applies) etc. – certainly no need for an application to work out whether the applicable rules say yay or nay.

    A new home in a garden help meet their quota (v marginally), is arguably on brownfield land

    😆

    dbcooper
    Member

    sharkbait – Member
    @dbc: that ws an extension to an existing home, which does has certain rights. Your architects were probably told in the first place that an acceptable plan might be OK, they just had to keep altering the plan to fit in with what the planners would accept.

    Is that whappened? Thanks for that insight. Can I ask how you know, are you on my local council?

    I’m just wondering if it was a conspiracy between you and my architects becasue the plan they submitted originally is exactly the same as the plan that was approved. You sneaky bunch.

    Premier Icon stimpy
    Subscriber

    Aracer I foresee a new career in planning opening up before you… 😀

    OP I would very strongly suggest speaking to someone who actually works in planning (and who isn’t a planner with your local council).

    If you think hiring a professional is expensive, wait until you hire an amateur…

    dbcooper
    Member

    My experience is that it was not that expensive, about 700 including the planning fee and they provided more/better than I asked for.

    Premier Icon stimpy
    Subscriber

    That’s the point dbcooper.

Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 65 total)

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