Any HR or workplace law experts in the house?

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  • Any HR or workplace law experts in the house?
  • Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    If it’s compulsory such as H&S then I believe you will get time in leu at equivilant hours, so flat rate not time and a half.

    Junkyard
    Member

    Two weeks in she has no employment rights

    If you are an hourly-paid worker, you must be paid at least the national minimum wage for all the hours you are contracted to work. This means that if you are under a contractual obligation to attend a training course even though it is outside your normal working hours (so that you can be disciplined if you don’t go, or if you leave part way through without your employer’s consent), you are likely to be ‘working’ and you have a good argument that you should be paid the national minimum wage.

    If you are on a monthly salary, the situation is more complicated. Whether or not you are entitled to be paid when on a training course outside your normal working hours will depend on what your written contract terms say, and on any training policy and/or on what you can negotiate with your employer on an ad hoc basis.

    If you owe a contractual obligation to attend the course (so that you can be disciplined for failing to go), there is a good argument that the time spent on the course is working time. Effectively, you are engaged in compulsory overtime. However, the extent to which you are entitled to pay (or time off in lieu) will depend on your contract terms. Many salaried workers in the UK work many additional hours of unpaid overtime each year.

    poly
    Member

    it may not be quite as clear cut as Drac suggests.

    It would probably be normal practice to be paid / get time off, but if they imply it is bringing the employee up to the minimum standard required for the job or optional training it may not need to be paid. Of course market forces might make it difficult to hire staff if you treat them like this…

    monkeychild
    Member

    If it’s compulsory such as H&S then I believe you will get time in leu at equivilant hours, so flat rate not time and a half.

    It’s compulsory in the fact that if all staff complete it, the owners get paid extra (she works in a community pharmacy). The staff are just expected to do it in their own time.

    Rockplough
    Member

    In the current climate I’d be quite happy if my employer was paying for me to get training courses under my belt, even if done on my own time. Assuming the courses are useful that is.

    MarkBrewer
    Member

    Is there anything in the contract about these training courses?

    Not an expert but I thought it was the case that even if you don’t sign an employment contract by continuing to work for the company you are essentially agreeing to their terms of employment?

    monkeychild
    Member

    My wife started a new part time job a few weeks ago.
    She is paid hourly for 25 hours a week. Her new employer expects her and other staff members to complete “compulsory” training courses in their own time i.e. outside of their normal working hoursWe are talking quite a few hours of work here aw well.
    She hasn’t signed a contract and there was no talk of this type of activity during the interview.
    Am I right in the fact she can tell them to “jog on”?

    TL:DR IMHO my wife’s new employer is taking the piss.

    b r
    Member

    I’d expect paying, so should she.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    it may not be quite as clear cut as Drac suggests.

    It’s not clear cut at all.

    The compulsory or mandatory part is open to interpretation but legal training such as H&S allows for the time back.

    If it’s to allow her to do her job then it’s not so simple.

    ninfan
    Member

    If there’s quite a few hours, would it risk reducing her average wage, including the compulsory training, to below minimum wage in the relevant weeks?

    It seems to me it be comparable to recent cases with sports direct (security checks) and nursing companies (travel between jobs) and I think minimum wage is one of the issues that you are protected under (i.e. Can send to tribunal) from day one.

    monkeychild
    Member

    Is there anything in the contract about these training courses?

    She hasn’t got one.

    If it’s to allow her to do her job then it’s not so simple.

    It isn’t compulsory to do her job as she is already fully qualified. In her previous roles these types of courses have been during the working day. By the sounds of it, they treat their staff like slaves (from other stuff she’s said).

    She is looking for a new job (she’s gutted she left her old job as she only took this one due the hours fitted better around school), as the workplace is toxic and they are breaking rules and cutting corners in other ways. She’s worried about being sacked for not doing these bloody things.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    If that’s right then I’d **** them off and go elsewhere

    tjagain
    Member

    Hobsons choice really – take it or leave it.

    monkeychild
    Member

    If that’s right then I’d **** them off and go elsewhere

    She’s trying 😆

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    No trying involved.

    “I’m sorry but due to you expecting me to work hours outside my normal time I do not wish to continue my employment with you.”

    Done.

    Jujuuk68
    Member

    Just a quick question – do the full time employees have to also complete several hours of compulsory training in core hours?

    You can’t easily have one rule for full time, and one for part time, without it appearing discriminatory, yet I’m guessing the trainer only works to company hours. It doesn’t really matter if it’s training, or selling widgits or whatever the actual job role is, its still working, ie time not at home, it’s compulsory attendance, which gives it the character of work, and it’s for the benefit of the company, not the employee, presumably at the company premises. It seems to me its just being asked to do something different to the usual.

    You could try to meet them half way with time off in lieu, or requesting overtime.

    It could be the training has to happen on a Thursday, as it’s say a paid or pre booked external course and your missus only works Tuesdays and Wednesdays, so some flexibility needs to be shown, but being told to turn up on the Thursday with no pay or expenses is not on. Even if she were happy with not being paid, who’s going to pay for childminders or what ever other things are usually done by her in the time they want her training?

    Premier Icon martinhutch
    Subscriber

    If the working environment is as toxic as you describe then she will be better off out of it. They will just show her the door anyway if she complains about this or any of the other shoddy practices. Once she’s in a new role, a quick note to the Care Quality Commission and General Pharmaceutical Council outlining where they are ‘breaking rules and cutting corners’ would be the responsible thing to do.

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    Drac – Moderator
    No trying involved.

    “I’m sorry but due to you expecting me to work hours outside my normal time I do not wish to continue my employment with you.”

    Done.

    In that comment, I believe Monkeychild is suggesting that his wife it trying to look for another job – not trying to get paid for training.

    Premier Icon bigblackshed
    Subscriber

    The company is bang out of order.

    If the training is for procedures or H&S then it’s conducted during work time. Or as paid extra hours by mutual agreement.

    If it’s for skills to do her job then they knew her skills before they employed her. Again conducted during work time or as paid extra hours.

    The only time when there is any leeway is if it’s a course or training she has requested as as part of Performance Management that would be transferable to another role elsewhere.

    In short if you want me to do something that benefits you, then you pay for it and you pay me to attend. Simple.

    monkeychild
    Member

    No trying involved.

    “I’m sorry but due to you expecting me to work hours outside my normal time I do not wish to continue my employment with you.”

    Done.

    We wish she could! Unfortunately bills need to be paid 🙁

    In that comment, I believe Monkeychild is suggesting that his wife it trying to look for another job – not trying to get paid for training.

    Yup!!! The director played a very good game at the interview. She now knows there is a very high staff turnover and Indeed has recently published bad reviews about it.

    Too late now, we know!!! But at least she can whistle blow and hopefully stop someone getting killed (there are very bad practices with drugs).

    stevextc
    Member

    Are these company specific training courses?

    Why do I feel you are talking about pre-school ?
    Heck why am I wondering if it’s the same organisation as my OH

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    In that comment, I believe Monkeychild is suggesting that his wife it trying to look for another job – not trying to get paid for training.

    Yes I know that hence my reply.

    We wish she could! Unfortunately bills need to be paid

    Ssdly I thought that might be why she couldn’t say goodbye so easily.

    monkeychild wrote:

    she works in a community pharmacy

    monkeychild wrote:

    as the workplace is toxic and they are breaking rules and cutting corners in other ways.

    Seriously?
    Is there not a governing body of some sort?

    This would be well beyond going to the naughty corner.

    5lab
    Member

    if she simply refuses to do the training (outside of paid hours) and therefore gets fired (assuming this happens), isn’t there a very clear case for wrongful dismissal which would pay the time it takes her to find a new job? seems less stressful than keeping hold of this one in the interim

    Premier Icon grumpysculler
    Subscriber

    if she simply refuses to do the training (outside of paid hours) and therefore gets fired (assuming this happens), isn’t there a very clear case for wrongful dismissal which would pay the time it takes her to find a new job?

    No right to this until 2 years service.

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    Yes I know that hence my reply.

    Yes, indeed! Blurry morning mis-read!

    monkeychild
    Member

    Well. There may be good news on the horizon 🙂 She got a phone call from a more pleasant company today and has an interview on Thursday, so fingers crossed!!!!

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    That’s a positive step.

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