Viewing 40 posts - 81 through 120 (of 238 total)
  • Anti Semitism and Labour
  • oreetmon
    Member

    It’s Anti Israel, that’s all.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    “fabricated” – “zero evidence” – hard to take a video with those claims seriously

    mbl1
    Member

    I find the whole situation frustrating and intriguing.

    Isreal sits in a very precarious position, surrounded by countries that hate it, and the Isreali strategy for dealing with this has been aggression.

    Their strength in the Middle East is very heavily dependent on having the support of strong countries such as the US and the UK. They lobby the hell out of politicians in these countries to keep this support in place.

    Corbyn has a long and consistent record of supporting the Palestinian cause, and in doing this sits at odds with Israel. Corbyn becoming PM would be very bad news for Israel, thus Israel does all it can to stop that happening.

    Muddying the waters between antisemitism and antozionism is one way of doing this. The more people lose sight of the difference the more Corbyn can be painted as an anti semite.

    Premier Icon lister
    Subscriber

    Genuine question: why doesn’t he, or why can’t he, say that then?
    Why can’t he say, in an interview like last night, that his views on Israel are ‘X’ but his views on Jewish people and their beliefs are ‘Y’?

    Premier Icon tjagain
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    Because he will be attacked as an anti semite for doing so

    A part of the definition used for anti semitisim is ” denial of the right of the jewish people to self determination” ( paraphrased) so using that definition any critism of Israel will be taken as a deinal of that self determination and thus anti semetic

    its a ” have you stopped beating your wife yet” question. No answer will satisfy

    “I don’t beat my wife”.

    Seems easy enough to me. But that’s a simple question with fixed goalposts.

    I see the Heil are now going after the SNP for wanting to enable Labour.

    TJ,
    I’ve seen the stuff that people have tweeted, the pictures and tropes they’ve shared on social media, and the support for proudly genocidal organisations that they’ve proglumated. There may be cases where its all a bit “is the phrase jungle drums racist?”, and theres room for doubt, or worry about intent, but most of it is pretty blatant, deliberate, unapologetic, and stuff that most people would hesitate to say about any other race.

    As a corollary, I’ve also seen massive criticism of the leaders, governments and political systems of hungary, turkey & china all over the web for the last few months, but no large scale distribution of racism against people from those countries (at least in the circles I read in).

    Why is Israel different? There are people out there who will take any criticism and paint it as antisemitism, but the reaction to that should be to be careful and directed, not to start sharing tropes about global cabals, blood libels and pushing the population of a country into the sea.

    Premier Icon tjagain
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    Eat the puddin – and how much of that is official labour policy? is labour candidates? is labour members? Is just nutters on the net?

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Subscriber

    Lotds o0f support for Corbyn from prominent jews all over social media – how much of their statements gets reported? the chief Rabbi speaks only for a part of British Jews – and the most conservative part at that

    “I don’t beat my wife”

    Currently.

    There needs to be “never had, never will” to cover all bases.

    kerley
    Member

    And the fact he is a Boris Johnson supporter who raises this in the election campaign is questionable.

    It’s an open goal. That could and should have been thoroughly bricked up months ago.

    mrlebowski
    Member

    find the whole situation frustrating and intriguing.

    Isreal sits in a very precarious position, surrounded by countries that hate it, and the Isreali strategy for dealing with this has been aggression.

    Their strength in the Middle East is very heavily dependent on having the support of strong countries such as the US and the UK. They lobby the hell out of politicians in these countries to keep this support in place.

    Corbyn has a long and consistent record of supporting the Palestinian cause, and in doing this sits at odds with Israel. Corbyn becoming PM would be very bad news for Israel, thus Israel does all it can to stop that happening.

    Muddying the waters between antisemitism and antozionism is one way of doing this. The more people lose sight of the difference the more Corbyn can be painted as an anti semite.

    My thinking too.

    Isn’t there an issue with JC having Marxist tendencies & colonialism? Isreal effectively being a colony? I’ll admit my knowledge of political science isn’t as good as some – hence the question.

    I’m just trying to work out the root of these accusations bar his ‘support’ for Hamas/Hazbollah?

    For clarity: I don’t believe he’s an anti-Semite, but I do believe he’s no fan of Israel’s aggression.

    have been looking for an attack line

    firstly they tried ” communist” it didn’t damage Corbyn and it didn’t stick

    then they tried ” terrorist supporter” – that did not stick either

    then they tried “antisemite” that stuck better so its been hammered.

    Yes, but look how it’s improved the quality of political debate in this country? Another few weeks of this and our best journalism will be on par with youtube comment threads or even twitr

    Premier Icon slowoldman
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    2017 election voting by religious affiliation.

    Jewish vote appears approx 60%/25% Con/Lab. Quite similar to Anglicans! Islam 80% Lab. I’ve no idea what impact the Chief Rabbi’s comments will have on the Jewish community. The 25% who voted Lab last time might already dismiss what he says. There are plenty of Jews opposed to Israel’s policies towards Palestine.

    And for a bit of balance

    TJ, Not labour policy, but read the twitter thread I put up there /\/\/\ from maajid nawaz. You don’t have to agree with everything he said, but the bit about _institutional_ antisemitism (as opposed to a few random nutters) is interesting.

    Short version .. other parties have issues and individuals, who say things and are largely never heard from again, labour can take an age to come to a decision and then reinstate a racist.

    The people who call all criticism of israel antisemitism on one side, seem to be balanced by those who will call just about any form of anti semititism “just criticism of israel” on the other.

    A plague on both their houses.

    project
    Member

    Just perhaps a lot of jewish people own large companies,which Mr Corbyn will be hopefully taxing more, to pay for more services that need more help. They have a huge tax bill looming and are coordinating a huge uprising against him, supported by the media, pity most people dont care, are not racist or anti semitic but just want to live a quiet life with a well funded nhs and publicly supplied essential services, and not be distracted by made up stories from the media barons.

    gauss1777
    Member

    Project: my understanding (which may be wrong, everything is a bit woolly with this) is that your guarded statement is enough to be regarded as anti-Semitic.

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    Just perhaps a lot of jewish people own large companies,

    and are coordinating a huge uprising against him,

    That’s getting very close of the standard Jewish Conspiracy theory, which is often used as a justification for antisemitism….

    Project: my understanding (which may be wrong, everything is a bit woolly with this) is that your guarded statement is enough to be regarded as anti-Semitic.

    Well past the threshold. Somewhat ironic given its a post on a thread about how antisemitism is all made up (in the Labour Party).

    Just goes to show how widespread low level antisemitism is…

    project
    Member

    unlikely for me to be anti semetic,i have been to israel,on holiday,a freindly place, have met many jewish people and all extremely freindly and welcoming to all. Well worth a visit.

    Nice to see the Archbishop of Canterbury getting involved, must be very serious, as he’s generally a very tolerant chap…

    Archbishop

    there again, there is that whole christian zionist thing

    Wonder where Boris Johnson stands on all of this?

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    gauss1777

    Member

    Project: my understanding (which may be wrong, everything is a bit woolly with this) is that your guarded statement is enough to be regarded as anti-Semitic.

    Didn’t seem that guarded tbh, I’m half hoping it’s a joke?

    Premier Icon senor j
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    What mbl1 said plus 1. Glad it’s not just me that feels this way.
    What really worries me is this all smells of P.R.manipulation .
    I was listening to radio 5 couple of months ago and a contributor* , a layer for a pro Palestinian charity alleged that the Israeli state government had employed a pr company to work against a labour government. Quite scary. But if you believe Russians can hack computers and assasinate folk here ,then anything could be true….:-(
    By saying the above I am now probably classed as anti Semitic by some. 🙁
    * sorry can’t remember her name.

    Premier Icon kelvin
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    unlikely for me to be anti semetic

    Well, that you can say that, despite being the only person to post anything antisemitic, is quite a useful illustration of the problem. There are people who are absolutely sure they are not antisemitic who are spreading antisemitic tropes. Some are in the Labour Party… and some are the ones failing to identify and deal with antisemitic problems because they share the same faults.

    Premier Icon tjagain
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    mrlebowski

    The whole thing is a complete falsehood blown out of all proportion simply because corbyn supports the palestinians and dares to criticises israel.

    Yes there are anitsemites in labour party and yes there is a slight anti semetic edge to the far left. However the scale of this in the labour -arty is similar to the country at large and much less than in the tory party.

    the idea Corbyn is an antisemite is a simple slur and no one has even been able to show any evidence of this.

    The chief Rabbi does not speak for all UK jews – he speaks for the orthodox only

    Just perhaps a lot of jewish people own large companies,which Mr Corbyn will be hopefully taxing more, to pay for more services that need more help. They have a huge tax bill looming and are coordinating a huge uprising against him, supported by the media

    More legitimate criticism of the State of Isreal?

    DrJ
    Member

    Why is Israel different?

    Some history might be helpful. Maybe start by Googling “World War 2”.

    War you say?

    Premier Icon BillMC
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    TJ, I think you’ll find the chief rabbi claims to speak for the reform synagogues whereas rabbis from the charedi orthodox synagogues have written an open letter, with 28 signatories, in support of Corbyn and Labour.

    Premier Icon hels
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    BillMC – watch yourself – you are in danger there of letting actual facts get in the way of a good old rammy about Israel, a subject on which nobody seems to lack a strong and emotive view.

    Premier Icon tjagain
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    Ta Bill. My mistake then. I saw him described as the leader of orthodox jews.

    Whatever he clearly only speaks for a section of the jewish community

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    the idea Corbyn is an antisemite is a simple slur and no one has even been able to show any evidence of this.

    Pretty sure no one is accusing him of going out after dark and spraying swastikas on Jewish head stones, but the main accusation seems to be an almost total indifference to anti-Semitism in the Labour party and interference from the top in some investigations.

    As for total lack of evidence, some form of evdidence must have been given to the Human Rights and Equality Watchdog unless they’re in on the conspiracy too…

    https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/inquiries-and-investigations/investigation-labour-party

    5thElefant
    Member

    Whatever he clearly only speaks for a section of the jewish community

    Probably a sections making up about 80%

    Premier Icon BillMC
    Subscriber

    R. Weinberger writes

    I write to you on behalf of the Executive Board of the United European Jews organisation regarding an unusually disturbing declaration that was … reported in the media claiming that the overwhelming majority of British Jews are “gripped by anxiety” at the prospect of a Labour victory in the forthcoming general election.

    Please not that we totally reject and condemn in no uncertain terms these remarks, which [do] not represent the views of the mainstream chareidi Jews that live in the UK.

    We believe that such assertions are due to propaganda with a political and ideological agenda. An agenda which, I might add, is diametrically opposed to fundamental Jewish values as well as the opinions of tens of thousands of Jews in our community.

    At this time, we also relay our gratefulness for your numerous acts of solidarity with the Jewish community over many years and also welcome your assurances that Labour will do everything necessary to defend the Jewish way of life and protect our rights to practise our religion.

    For all this, we take this opportunity to say: Thank you! Mr Corbyn.

    whilst some of you are getting your knickers in a twist about Israel perhaps you should think about what they have invented for the world…

    Seems a bit ironic that some of you are so right on but led by the media perception of how bad Israel is, if you’ve not been then quite simply you’re view is invalid and you only know what the media wants you to know.

    Perhaps it may surprise you that a lot of Israelis and Palestinians work side by side in harmony, especially in Hospitals…

    But as you know the media is always correct…

    if you hate Israel so much then put down your phone (after all it was invented there) don’t get ill what ever you do as chances are the life saving drug could have well been invented in Israel !

    oh and get off your computer as yes again most of it was developed in Israel…

    https://www.israel21c.org/made-in-israel-the-top-64-innovations-developed-in-israel/

    vote Labour not on your nelly !

    quite honestly most of you spout drivvle and best of all are champagne socialists…

    Premier Icon tjagain
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    Its nothing to do with a false media perception. Its an understanding of the abhorrence of apartheid / ghettoisation.

    What they have done to the Palestinians is unconscionable and quite disgusting. Shooting unarmed children. Blocking food and medical supplies to civilians as punishment. Using collective punishments on civilians. Blowing up hospitals.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Subscriber

    Back to Corbyn the anti semite:

    Thanks to the BBC and Carl Lingard BBC News Just found this list on (of all places!) the The Board of Deputies of British Jews facebook page.. Hope it’s useful.
    Corbyn organised the Apr. 1977 defence of Jewish populated Wood Green from a Neo-Nazi march
    EDM3933 7 Nov. 1990: Corbyn signs motion condemning the rise of antisemitism
    EDM634, 11 Apr. 2000: Jeremy Corbyn signs motion condemning David Irving for being a Holocaust Denier
    EDM1124, 6 Nov. 2000: Jeremy Corbyn praised the ‘British Schindler’, Bill Barazetti, for his WW2 kindertransport
    EDM742, 28 Jan. 2002: Jeremy Corbyn signs motion praising football clubs for commemorating Holocaust Day
    EDM1233 30 Apr. 2002: Corbyn was a primary sponsor on a motion condemning antisemitism
    11 May 2002: Jeremy led a clean up of Finsbury Park Synagogue after an anti-Semitic attack
    EDM1691, 23 July 2002: Corbyn condemned attacks on a synagogue in Swansea
    EDM123 26 Nov. 2003: Corbyn officially condemns attacks on 2 Istanbul synagogues
    EDM298, 16 Dec. 2003: Jeremy Corbyn signs motion commemorating International Holocaust Day
    2004: Jeremy condemned news that anti-Semitic hate crimes had risen for yet another year
    EDM461, 21 Jan. 2004: Jeremy Corbyn condemned the French government’s moves to ban the Jewish Kippa in French Schools
    EDM717, 26 Feb. 2004: Jeremy signed a motion praising Simon Wiesenthal for bringing Nazi perpetrators of the Holocaust to justice
    EDM1613, 8 Sept. 2004: Corbyn co-sponsored a bill expressing fears for the future of the United Synagogue Pension Scheme
    EDM1699, 11 Oct. 2004: Jeremy Corbyn condemned arbitrary attacks on civilians in Israel and Palestine
    EDM482, 12 Jan. 2005: Jeremy Corbyn signs a motion commemorating International Holocaust Day
    EDM343, 16 June 2005: Jeremy condemned the desecration of a Jewish cemetery in east London
    EDM1343, 11 Jan. 2006: Jeremy Corbyn signs a motion commemorating International Holocaust Day
    EDM1774, 8 Mar. 2006: Jeremy Corbyn led condemnations of an Iranian Magazine soliciting cartoons about the Holocaust
    EDM1267, 16 Apr. 2006: Jeremy Corbyn condemned Bryan Ferry for anti-Semitic remarks
    EDM2414, 26 June 2006: Jeremy Corbyn praised British war veterans for their efforts to combat the Holocaust
    EDM2705, 10 Oct. 2006: Jeremy signed a motion marking the 70th anniversary of Cable Street
    EDM271, 14 Nov. 2007: Jeremy co-sponsored a motion lamenting the poverty and social exclusion East London Jews suffered
    EDM153, 12 May 2008: Corbyn praised the efforts of the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto during the uprising of 1944
    EDM2350, 27 Oct 2008: Jeremy Corbyn signs a motion marking the 70th anniversary of the horrors of the holocaust
    EDM173, 8 Dec. 2008: Jeremy condemned the Press Complaints Commission for refusing to sanction The Times for antisemitism
    EDM461, 14 Jan. 2009: Jeremy Corbyn condemned a wave of recent anti-Semitic incidents targeted
    EDM605, 27 Jan. 2009: Corbyn signed John Mann’s motion condemning antisemitism on university campuses
    EDM917 26 Feb. 2009: Jeremy signs a motion condemning antisemitism on the internet
    EDM1175 24 Mar. 2009: Corbyn signs a motion praising the heroism of British Jews during Holocaust
    EDM337, 2 Dec. 2009: Jeremy Condemned Iran’s treatment of Jewish minorities in Iran
    EDM850 9 Feb. 2010: Jeremy joins in calls for Facebook to do more to fight antisemitism
    EDM891: 22 Feb 2010: Corbyn co-sponsors a motion calling for Yemen’s Jews to be given refugee status to the UK
    EDM908 27 Oct. 2010: Corbyn praises work of late Israeli PM in his pursuit of a 2 state solution
    EDM1360, 27 Jan. 2011: Corbyn co-sponsored a motion praising the ‘never again for anyone initiative’
    EDM1527, 3 Mar. 2011: Corbyn backed Ian Paisley’s motion condemning the anti-Semitic remarks of Dior’s lead fashion designer
    EDM2870, 14 Mar. 2012: Jeremy Corbyn condemned the sale of Nazi memorabilia at an auction in Bristol
    EDM2866, 14 Mar 2012: Jeremy Corbyn co-sponsored a bill condemning the rise of antisemitism in Lithuania
    EDM2899, 20 Mar. 2012, Jeremy Corbyn condemned a terrorist attack on a Jewish school in Toulouse
    EDM168, 12 June 2012, Jeremy co-sponsored a motion condemning anti-Semitic attacks during EURO 2012 in Poland
    EDM 195 13 June 2012: Jeremy attacks BBC for cutting Jewish programmes from Its schedule
    EDM 1133 1 Mar 2013: Corbyn joins a chorus of calls condemning antisemitism In sport
    1 Oct. 2013: Corbyn was one of the few MPs who defended Ralph Miliband from Daily Mail antisemitism
    EDM 932 9 Jan 2014: Jeremy praises Holocaust Memorial’s work on antisemitism education
    EDM 165 22 June 2015: Jeremy condemns a Neo-Nazi rally planned for a Jewish area of London
    Sat 4 July 2015: Jeremy co-planned a counter-fascist demo in defence of Jewish residents at Golders Green. The march was re-routed
    18 Nov. 2015, Corbyn used one of his first PMQs to challenge Cameron to do more on antisemitism
    9 Oct 2016: Corbyn, close to tears, leads commemoration of the Battle of Cable Street
    3 Dec. 2016: Corbyn visits Terezin Concentration Camp to commemorate Holocaust victims
    In 2017-19 Jeremy introduced 20 new measures to combat antisemitism in the Labour Party

    quite honestly most of you spout drivvle and best of all are champagne socialists…

    Satire trolling?

    Raed Salah.

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