Another work possible oversensitivity issue – advice welcomed, please.

I work for a big company. I have two bosses, and one of them seems really keen to see the back of me and one of my team members.

Are the following points the normal cut and thrust of work (aka, I’m being oversensitive), or is something going on?

• Being told my future performance ratings will depend on getting my team member up or out
• Being told that I should seek new opportunities as my negativity (pointing out some legitimate issues, backed with data) was “not working” for the boss
• Being told that everyone has seasons for employment and jobs, and that perhaps my colleague is out of season
• Being asked to informally coach and help a colleague so that he can expand “to do your job”. Aka train my replacement, so that my exit can be accelerated.

My concern is this is all in the realm of faces not fitting, rather than legit performance questions. It is not a union shop.

WWSTWD?

I’d look for a job somewhere else! Can’t be that relaxing….

Yeah, the job hunt is underway. I guess I’m wondering if there is a way for the company to help me on my way/pay me to go away…

Personally, i’d just be data gathering and actively working out how to get any of what you’ve said witnessed, the bigger the company, the bigger the HR department!

Keep contemporaneous records of everything that is said as soon as possible after it is said.

“I guess I’m wondering if there is a way for the company to help me on my way/pay me to go away…”

Settlement Agreement

Talk to your union rep and get them to note it down PDQ. This is then a time dated note of what happened (irrespective of whether it is opinion). Yep and work out what you want from them if they try to force you out. Again your union rep or full timers will help understand what may be realistic.

PS just noted that you’ve said it’s not a union shop. Start one or join one! Professionals tend to be pushed much harder by management and need good unions to help push back just as much if not more so than factory workers. We’ve all just been sold the lie that we’re more than that. If it’s a big financial institution then they possibly already recognise a union but not necessarily common to have members at middle management or management grades.

Talk to the boss I guess you get on with and see if there is the posibility of moving under them completely.

Having 2 bosses sucks at the best of times anyway!

Thats rough OP. Sounds like they’d rather you made your own decision to go so that they don’t have to jump through hoops to remove you. How long have you been there, and do you have any protected characteristics?

Sounds like you are getting ‘managed out’ unless you kick back, hard.

Being told my future performance ratings will depend on getting my team member up or out

You’ve been told that your performance will be judged on the performance of another? so something that is out of your control? yeah…..hmmm

Being told that I should seek new opportunities as my negativity (pointing out some legitimate issues, backed with data) was “not working” for the boss

Is any of this in writing? formal grievance time… but it sounds like making a formal grievance will make you a pariah anyway, if you are not already…?

Manage your own departure, I think, make things as painfull and protracted for your manager as you can in the process, whilst sticking to the rules, obvioulsly.

Open ended email asking them to confirm via email the points from these meetings so that you can focus on the key areas.

I work for a big company. I have two bosses,

Given it’s a big company does the arsey boss have the power to get rid of people on a whim, it may be that HR / the rest of the company aren’t in agreement with his p.o.v. Obvs if they are you’re screwed.

Meh, life’s too short, either be blunt about it with them and try and get them to pay you to go away, but don’t expect much, or just leave as soon as you can and move on with your life.

Join a union

Some great pointers in here, thank you.

Now investigating union options. And I’m loving MCTD’s suggestion to entrap the problematic boss.

I do intend to move on ASAP, but I’ve got myself a) a sweet deal that will be hard to replicate b) I need to ensure there is a smooth transition, unless I can get a decent payment to go away (breath not held for that).

People saying to join a union, you do know that not all companies/organisations recognise unions?

Unions are shit, sorry said it.  Document everything. I had a shoot time with a boss where I still work, picked up everything anyone did. Fortunatey the grumpy git retired and new boss was totally different. I documented any emails etc and ket them ‘just in case’. It’s usually the manager who is failing if they are saying stuff like that, not you. They need a proper process and HR would need invlving. Do you have PDR’s and are you ‘achieving’ your goals (for the zero use PDR’s are, but if no-one has said you aren’t achieving). Both I and my wife have worked in some badly run places where managers try and force you out. Wife has had a few settlement agreements, I just walked.

Not really much use being in a union if you’re the only one, they only really work through strength in numbers. They can help ensure due process but you can just clue yourself up anyway it’s all simple stuff.

Don’t get me wrong I’m big in support of unions both practically and in principle but it’s incorrect to assume they are relevant in every job (at least currently).

And I’m loving MCTD’s suggestion to entrap the problematic boss.

Having experience of arsehole managers above and below me, if they are stupid enough to say crap like this, they are likely to be stupid enough to repeat it

Not really much use being in a union if you’re the only one, they only really work through strength in numbers. They can help ensure due process

That’s exactly why you join one, even if on your own.

Yeah, but it’s a fact that in a lot of workplaces the second upper management learns you’re in a union you can kiss goodbye to any future promotions. At which point why bother staying at that workplace anyway, defeating the point of joining.

I’m sure it’s useful if you’re going to be sacked and need some help ensuring it’s not done unfairly but nobody really gets sacked these days unless they’re genuinely shite.

Are you employed in a training role? Was it explained at intake that your work performance depended on an individual that , I’m guessing, you had zero part in hiring?
Is it not the job of your boss to ensure the team are trained properly?

Yeah, but it’s a fact that in a lot of workplaces the second upper management learns you’re in a union you can kiss goodbye to any future promotions.

And if anyone tells you that and you’ve been passed over for promotion it’s the first thing you raise. Using that as an excuse shows very poor management. The people most likely to need unions are very senior managers as they are the ones who get pressured out most often. Never ever accept that pathetic excuse from anyone. The only way to fairness and good management is to work together.

You’ve been told that your performance will be judged on the performance of another? so something that is out of your control? yeah…..hmmm

eh, every team leader is judged on the performance of their team which is in part the performance of the individuals.  Not uncommon for managers to complain that one of their team is not pulling their weight – guess who’s job it is to  address that either by supervision/coaching or firing!  It sometimes seems to be a shock to new managers that the extra money they get for managing is in return for sometimes having to do shit tasks.

Ive got some sympathy for a manager who finds an employee full of negativity.  Even when the reasons are sound, some people complain but never fix and are so locked into moaning that if you gave everyone a bonus day off they’d complain that they just get extra work when they return!

I don’t understand the point about seasons.

people recruiting can often tell if you are leaving with a compromise agreement… you learn to spot them – the assumption will be that you were incompetent/incapable or difficult/disruptive !   I’d much rather hire someone who knows it’s not the right place for them than who will hang out for another year or two waiting for the push.

Could the OPs manager deal with it better? Certainly.  I’d say it’s only worth hanging on for settlement if you have long service or a drawn out notice they will hold you to, or are going to struggle to find a new job – otherwise it’s almost always better to be out of a toxic place and somewhere you feel you fit in.

Manage your own departure, I think, make things as painfull and protracted for your manager as you can in the process, whilst sticking to the rules, obvioulsly.

I think this comes under the umbrella heading of “malicious compliance”, which can be quite beneficial if carried out skilfully… 😙

Not uncommon for managers to complain that one of their team is not pulling their weight – guess who’s job it is to  address that either by supervision/coaching or firing!  It sometimes seems to be a shock to new managers that the extra money they get for managing is in return for sometimes having to do shit tasks.

I had an opportunity to apply for a supervisor position at my last job; no ****ing way, José! I enjoyed my job, I was good at it, and would still be working there now, if the site hadn’t closed, but no way would I have anything to do with people-management, I don’t have the necessary skills and I recognise that – I absolutely know my limitations. I’ve had supervisors who clearly didn’t know theirs, a couple at that last place.
Not for long, though.

First of all , you and your manager simply may not gel.  Do you have options to move, is he/she likely to move?

Are you thinking of going to HR with a listed set of complaints? Else you’re not going to get anything.

What do you want to do? Stay or go?

Yeah, the job hunt is underway. I guess I’m wondering if there is a way for the company to help me on my way/pay me to go away…

I had this a couple of decades ago, luckily I’d a better relationship with the Head of HR than my boss did – just spoke with the Head of HR and let them know I was happy to leave with a ‘deal’.

Got 3 months (informal) notice of leaving – which meant I got that years bonus, and a 3 month pay off.

Have you got any ‘contacts’ further up the chain?

Remember that “HR is not your friend” – they work for the company, not for you.

It is possible to turn this on its head though – you can engage an external HR consultant who does work for you. It might cost a bit (£100-1000ish?) but they can help you with strategy & negotiation tactics, draft emails etc. and make it more of an even fight.

People saying to join a union, you do know that not all companies/organisations recognise unions?

Irrelevant.   Recognition is about collective bargaining not individual cases.  You have a right to advice and representation.   Victimisation because of union membership would also be actionable

We regularly see folk on here with workplace issues where union membership would be a great help.  Join one

I think some of the approaches above are more relevant if there is a round of redundancy , or number reduction/reorg going on, rather than just a scenario where a manager doesn’t like some of his staff. Unless the manager is being a knob, and doing something illegal, then negotiating an enhanced payoff is tricky – they can just say, ‘whatever, stay, we don’t care, just do your job till you’re ticked off enough to leave’.

If one manager is the problem , reorg yourself to be aligned under the manager.  Can you move? If the problem manager is consistently a problem with everyone , then grass him up to HR – he’s likely done it before, and they’ll move him/kick his butt.

If this has happened to you a few times don’t expect much joy from HR

If you truly believe it has gone beyond the tipping point you are now at the point where your employer is a hostile actor until you get another job elsewhere.

So, time consuming as it will be, document everything. Everything that could be construed as ‘negativity’ but is actually you giving sound advice.

I’ve never got to this point myself (choosing to walk rather than have the hassle and managing to get sorted pretty quick).

But I had a mate at previous employer who kept giving correct information to his (our) boss only to keep being told it was not the ‘right’ information. The boss arrived as part of a buy-out and was an incompetent stroker who’d promised a lot and was struggling to deliver.

He started by archiving off every email – onto his own drive – possibly in contravention of company rules, but boss-man had a habit of denying he’d ever been sent stuff and lying about what emails said. So my mate was able to say “email from 19/06/19 10:01 GMT said ‘x'”.

When he went in for a chat involving HR he had all his stuff with him. When boss man accused him of lying about having another job lined up in order to make a play for more pay he produced the offer letter from the other firm and, in front of the HR Director, told him to refrain from accusing him of lying in the future.

In the end he left with 6-12 months of full pay so long as he went quietly. It helped that we knew of other people who had gamed the system before the take-over knowing that due diligence would show any ongoing tribunals etc, so they paid them off.

Said boss man also managed to put another oppo of mine in hospital with a suspected angina attack brought on by stress and I ended my time there on a month of medical leave for stress/anxiety.

IMO it is best to leave clean – just get another job, hand in notice, offer to work it, but ask not to etc.

If you can’t do this and the situation has reached the point of no return, then document everything.

Best of luck. The majority of decent folk who end up with work-related mental health issues are the result of less competent people covering up their incompetence by blaming others, using personal friendships to advantage themselves etc etc.

Ask by email for your boss to confirm the key objectives he asked you to achieve (as stated earlier).
Google ‘constructive dismissal’.
Prepare a rough plan to achieve the objectives and ask you boss to confirm its suitability or better still sign off on it.
Match the objectives and points in the plan against the points for constructive dismissal and progress as you see fit.

3 questions i’d start with for you are…
1 – how old are you ?
2 – how much do you *need* this job
3 – what else is out there for you ?

As Ive said in other threads, i was in a Co for decades, until a cluster of a reverse takeover. My boss and boss’s boss had to try to shield the rest of the team members from all sorts of sh1t from the new fuckwhit senior management. Until it got too much for them, then went off sick through stress, and subsequently left for their own sanity. (They were both good and were instantly employed by competitors!).

Can you get a job elsewhere ? Can you get a payout to go ? Or are you dependent and financially ‘exposed’ to them if (when) they behave like **** ? Those should tell you whether to leave, or try to just keep your head down for a while, sort a plan B, etc.

(Most of us in my case left as we could get a job elsewhere by simply waving the CV out of the window. One mate has just out his head down, does minimum necessary and won’t go out of his way to be helpful to management any more, amd is running doen the clock until he gets axed (=payoff) or reaches retirement. Another did the same until the new management blinked 1st and gave him a bag of £££ to feckorf (but only after they tried and failed on a trumped up mis-behaviour charge).

ABSOLUTELY KEEP RECORDS of what goes on. I know 2 people who have had to rely on those to get a decent payoff in the past 3 years alone.

Lots of good advice here.

Rrplies keep disappearing

Documents conversations as well in emails

“Being told my future performance ratings will depend on getting my team member up or out”

If you are the other person’s manager/supervisor, then this might be fair enough. If they’re underperforming to the point where they’re failing to meet reasonable expectations for the role, then it is on you to give them a plan to meet the expectations OR terminate them for failing to do the job. If they’re not underperforming, then you need to show how their performance matches the reasonable expectations. Either way, it begins with comparing the person’s performance to the role.

If you are not the person’s manager, it is more difficult. It’s fair enough if the boss says “Dave, Ali is going to show you how to do this stuff because you need to catch up. Ali, you need to show Dave how to do this stuff properly”…but you can’t blame Ali if Dave doesn’t bother learning…

“Being told that I should seek new opportunities as my negativity (pointing out some legitimate issues, backed with data) was “not working” for the boss”

Are these important problems? Are they fixable problems? Do you suggest ways to fix them?

PS it all sounds rubbish and like the easiest option is to move. I’m fairly gloomy about companies or people changing

tjagainFull Member
Lots of good advice here.

And lots of terrible advice

What do you think is bad advice?