Viewing 39 posts - 1 through 39 (of 39 total)
  • Another First Fat Foray (Surly ICT)
  • roverpig
    Full Member

    I’ve been fat-curious for a while and we had a weekend in Aviemore planned with family and a friend. So, inspired by thenorthwind’s epic First Fat Foray I negotiated a pass for a few hours and contacted David at Bothy Bikes to arrange to hire a fat bike. I’ve been riding my Solaris in B+ mode over the winter and fancied going “all the way” to a 5″ bike. So, I ignored their main fleet of Genesis Caribou 4″ fatbikes and arranged to take out the Surly Ice Cream Truck. This is a full-on no-compromises 5″ fatbike, with 4.8″ Surly Bud and Lou tyres sitting on 100mm rims, a 132mm bottom bracket shell and a “trail geometry” (68 degree head angle). It also has a quoted weight of around 37lb (so actual weight is probably even higher). Something of a beast then!

    I must admit, my fat curiosity was mainly prompted by a winter that seems to have dragged on forever. When I arranged the rental my favourite trails were either covered in snow or a boggy mess. But since then it’s turned a fair bit warmer, the trails have dried out and I’ve started riding my full-suss Smuggler. Truth be told, I’d kind of lost interest in the whole fat thing before I got to the shop. But a few hours pass is not something you turn down, so I waved the family off and headed into the shop without much in the way of expectations.

    With the snow all gone from the lower levels, no car and only a few hours to play I settled on a pleasant little loop, trundling in and around loch an Eileen, then on to loch Morlich and over to the trails by the Badaguish centre to try something a bit steeper. So mainly exploring lochs with a bit of “proper mountain biking” near the end.

    I started the ride looking for answers to three main questions: would a fat bike actually allow me to ride in places where I couldn’t (or just wouldn’t want to) go on my “normal” bike? would I be able to live with the downsides? and would I really miss front (or even full) suspension?

    Let’s get one niggle out the way first. I can’t ride without a dropper! Not only doesn’t the Truck have one, it doesn’t even have a quick-release. I started off with a compromise seat hight, which was never right and annoyed me so much that I put my allen keys in my pocket and so that I could make frequent adjustments.

    With that out the way, the first question was dealt with fairly easily. There were some nice off camber roots near loch an Eileen which would usually give me pause, but the extra traction just made them fun. Coming round a bend I then hit a steep rooty climb “oh no, I’ll never make that, and I’m in too high a gear but I’ve left it too late to shift down, stand up, let’s see how far we get, oh I’m up!”. Down the other side, over a fallen tree “this is fun”. At the top of loch an Eileen I took the “unmaintained” path around loch Gamhna. This was properly boggy in places, but the Truck just kept on trucking. Even when the tyres sunk right into the bog it just seemed to trundle on through.

    Moving on to the steeper trails around Badaguish there was a real sense of security to the Truck. I’ll never be keeping up with the fast kids on the descents but the fear that usually accompanies descents was conspicuously absent. I was even taking silly lines, going over rocks rather than round them and it just ploughed on through.

    Downsides? Well I was struggling a bit to find them to be honest. It must be slow. I mean, it stands to reason. It weighs north of 37lb. The wheels weigh something like 3Kg each and I’ve never seen anybody serious about winning races choose a fatbike. So, it must be slow. But riding on my own on trails that I’ve not ridden before I don’t have anything with which to compare it.

    I was a bit disappointed at the end that I hadn’t found any proper climbs on which to test it as climbing ability was something that concerned me. But my Garmin claimed that I’d climbed just over 3,000 feet in three hours, so I guess there must have been some climbs in there. They didn’t stand out as being anything particularly unpleasant although there was one thing that interested me about the climbs. I never stand when climbing on a mountain bike. I’m very much a “select a low gear and spin” sort of climber. But, for some reason, I found myself getting out of the seat and attacking the short climbs. Maybe it was the nature of the trail, maybe something to do with the rigid forks or maybe just that the seat was never at the right height! but it was interesting.

    I stopped after an hour or so and flipped the bike over trying to see what size it was (as there were no obvious stickers). It was only then that I noticed the massive BB and remembered that Q-factor was supposed to be an issue! It must be my funny peddling style, but I just never noticed it. I’m at that age where my knees will often complain the day after a ride, but they are no worse today that usual, probably a bit better really.

    The lack of front suspension also seemed to be a non-issue as well, which surprised me. It doesn’t do high speed over rough ground well that’s true. That’s what my full-suss Smuggler excels at. But as long as you are happy to back off a bit the lack of front suspension doesn’t seem to limit what you can ride at all. In fact the constant geometry seems to make some of the steeper techy stuff a bit easier.

    So, it’s (probably) slow, but if you don’t mind that it’s all good really. It’s not a good option if you mainly ride to shave a few seconds off your Strava PB. There might be some specific segments where it does well, but mostly you’ll probably be slower than you would be on a normal bike. It’s probably not a good option if you are mostly a social rider (unless the rest of the group are on fatbikes). But, if you are the sort of anti-social git who mainly rides to get away from people it will let you get to places or ride in conditions were sensible folk wont go.

    It does require a totally different mindset really. The question stops being, how fast can I go, but where can I go? This is why I don’t think plus bikes are really an alternative to full-on fatbikes. My chubby Solaris (2.8″ tyres) is a great bike, but it’s just another trail bike really. It has some advantages (and some disadvantages) over 2.2″ tyres, but the differences are subtle. The differences between 2.8″ and 4.8″ are not at all subtle.

    You just have to look at threads about plus sized bikes. They are full of claims of PBs all over the place. Regardless of what you think of the veracity of these claims the story is still the same “buy this it will make you faster”. I don’t think anybody seriously claims that for fatbikes.

    I’m sure I’m not the first person to sign off with this quote, but the phrase that kept rattling round in my head as I rode along was “it’s mountain biking Jim, but not as we know it”.

    geoffj
    Full Member

    I hired the same bike last summer and loved it too.

    The question stops being, how fast can I go, but where can I go

    Is the reason I’m almost at the point of ordering one – although probably not an ICT.

    roverpig
    Full Member

    Is the reason I’m almost at the point of ordering one – although probably not an ICT.

    What are you going for?

    I find myself thinking “it was great, but maybe it would be even better if …”. Maybe lighter, maybe a suspension fork (not that I missed it). But then again, maybe “it was great” was all that should matter. Maybe something lighter would feel less secure on the downhill section. I don’t know really, but it’s all good fun.

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    iainc
    Full Member

    great wee write up. Will be up there for a week shortly on same trails and am dithering about a fatty hire day ! How much do Bothy charge for a day ?

    thenorthwind
    Full Member

    Nice write-up! You’ve upped the first fat forway (FFF??) ante.

    Like this 🙂

    It’s probably not a good option if you are mostly a social rider (unless the rest of the group are on fatbikes). But, if you are the sort of anti-social git who mainly rides to get away from people it will let you get to places or ride in conditions were sensible folk wont go.

    NormalMan
    Full Member

    They are also ‘on sale’ atm – but you know that, right? 😉

    roverpig
    Full Member

    Thanks. I think they charge £16 for a half-day and £20 or a full day. Although I didn’t have all day I went for the full-day rental so that I could pick up and drop of when I wanted. Money well spent, even if you are just curious I reckon. But don’t go round loch an Eilein on a pleasant Sunday if you are feeling anti-social. Everyone wants to chat about your funny bike !

    roverpig
    Full Member

    Nice write-up! You’ve upped the first fat forway (FFF??) ante.

    Thanks, just picking up the baton, but your pictures were way more epic !

    They are also ‘on sale’ atm – but you know that, right?

    [fingers-in-ears] la, la, la, not listening [/fingers-in-ears] 🙂

    rocketman
    Free Member

    Right I can see why people have preconceived ideas about fat bikes

    A 37 lb fatbike would be a non-starter for me. Each of 3 I rode (Spesh Fat Boy, Scott Big Jon, Cube Nutrail) felt like a regular trail bike and my Big Jon is just over 30 lbs with only a few simple mods

    Have a look at the traily fat bikes rp you might be pleasantly surprised

    geoffj
    Full Member

    What are you going for?

    Dunno, but I like the look of the Specialized Fatboy and the Scott Big Jon.

    my Big Jon is just over 30 lbs with only a few simple mods

    What mods Rocketman and is your’s a large?

    roverpig
    Full Member

    I’m not sure the weight was an issue. It wasn’t something I noticed when riding it (although you notice it when trying to lift it over stuff). Up and down it felt great. I’m assuming that it must have been slower than a lighter bike, because that’s how gravity works, but I didn’t notice it when riding. I also wonder whether there are some upsides to a heavier bike that I hadn’t thought of before. Maybe not, but it’s making me think and I love a good think 🙂

    I had a good look at the Big Jon as bothy bikes sell those too and had one in the shop. The aesthetics don’t do it for me, but then I’m shallow. I could live with them though and the price looked good. The bothy bikes staff seemed to think that it wasn’t as solid feeling as the ICT, but I didn’t ride it so can’t comment. I think a lot of the “extra” weight of the ICT is in the wheels. Stick on 80mm rims with Jumbo Jim tyres (like the Big Jon) and the difference is probably a lot less.

    NormalMan
    Full Member

    Must confess I’ve not weighed my Pugs. It sure isn’t light but it has never ‘felt’ heavy when riding and that is what counts.

    hopkinsgm
    Full Member

    One point to note on weight – if I spent a weekend riding my old OOF with steel forks, my shoulders would spend most of Monday reminding me about it. Since changing to an aluminium Beargrease with a carbon fork (and a lighter front wheel/tyre combo), I get much less grief from my shoulders. I think this is probably more because it’s easier to pop the front end over stuff rather than the fabled “twang” you’re supposed to get with carbon forks

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    For me, part of “go more places” includes the fact that I’ll end up pushing, carrying and lifting the bike. For that reason I’d rule out something at 37lb.

    MadBillMcMad
    Full Member

    I’m trying really hard to not demo the ICT.

    Been riding my OOF for 18+ months now & love it, but hefting a bike that is 37lbs doesn’t appeal. I am sure it feels great while riding though.

    Of the surly’s I think the Wednesday would be the one I’d instinctively go for, if there was one to buy.

    rocketman
    Free Member

    What mods Rocketman and is your’s a large?

    It’s XL

    OE saddle 360g RF Atlas 200g
    Front mech shifter godawful extender bracket etc 350 g RF n/w 50 g
    Schwlabe freeride tubes 185g half the weight of the originals
    Xt cassette 330g OE Deore 380 g
    couple of lbs right there

    OE bars/stem/seatpost didn’t weigh them but they felt like they were made out of lead. Thomson post 200 g X4 stem 175 g Renthal bars 260 g

    RT-81 rotors as well those OE rotors are like manhole covers 🙂

    The aesthetics don’t do it for me

    But it looks oarsum 🙁

    roverpig
    Full Member

    For me, part of “go more places” includes the fact that I’ll end up pushing, carrying and lifting the bike. For that reason I’d rule out something at 37lb.

    Yes, that’s the one aspect that would bother me too. As I say, I really didn’t notice (or at least didn’t care about) what it weighed when I was riding it. But it’s the sort of bike that will encourage you to ride in the sort of places where the odd (or even extended) bit of hike-a-bike is inevitable. How much would an extra couple of kilos on my shoulders annoy me?

    I do wonder how significant the different fatbike weights are though. There does seem to be a trend for manufacturers to supply bikes with light tyres (e.g. Jumbo Jim) on narrower (80mm) rims, which looks good at the point of sale. But if you end up sticking heavier tyres on it then you haven’t really gained anything (just lost the cost of the tyres).

    At the end of the day the significant difference is the frame weight as you may change everything else. I’ve been riding a Solaris for a while and the steel frame never bothered me there, so why would I care about it on a bike that has a larger overall weight (due to the wheels) anyway?

    But it looks oarsum

    Probably rides oarsum too 🙂

    bedmaker
    Full Member

    For the past few years I’ve been riding a heavy fatbike, probably around 36lb. Steel, rohloff, reverb, Buds. It’s not slow at all. Hikeabike does highlight it’s heft though, but I wouldn’t consider it a dealbreaker.
    However, I had my first proper ride yesterday on my new fat carbon wonderbike and I got a load of PR’s and a KOM on a loop I’ve ridden loads of times. I wasn’t particularly trying to, but I guess new bike syndrome was working.
    My scales are rubbish but is should be around 27lbs according to the internet. It’s very stiff under climbing too, which makes a big (percieved anyway) difference climbing.
    Don’t muck around with a half hearted effort, go 5″. First thing I did with my new bike was to swap the 4.0 JJ’s (for sale!) for the proper ones.
    A mate got the ICT and swapped the 100mm rims for 80 and put a BFL instead of Lou on the back, then tubelessed it. Made it a lot more sprightly.

    Bregante
    Full Member

    What is this carbon wonderbike bedmaker?

    bedmaker
    Full Member

    Canyon Dude Ex 9.0. Bluto removed and replaced with a Lauf, Jones carbon bars, JJ 4.8 Snakeskin instead of 4.0 Liteskin and my preferred SDG Bel air to perch on.
    It’s fantastic 🙂

    roverpig
    Full Member

    I had my first proper ride yesterday on my new fat carbon wonderbike and I got a load of PR’s and a KOM on a loop I’ve ridden loads of times.

    So, even fatbikerists care about PBs? That blows my theory out of the water then 🙂 Surely once you start down the line of “my new bike is faster so it is better” you end up abandoning fatbikes altogether.

    Don’t muck around with a half hearted effort, go 5″.

    I’m with you on that one I think. If I did go down the fat route (and it is still an if) I’d want it to be as different as possible to my regular full-suss trail bike (which isn’t going anywhere) even if it’s just stupid different.

    roverpig
    Full Member

    A quick update as I always think it’s interesting to see what sticks in your memory and what fades after riding a new bike. It’s usually the question that stick I find. In this case:

    Why did I stand up so much (climbs and out of corners)? I never stand on a mountain bike unless I’m freewheeling. Was it because it was rigid? was it because it was so sluggish that I had to stand to get/keep it moving? Maybe, but in that case why was it fun and not just a chore?

    Why wasn’t I bothered by the lack of front suspension? I much prefer my full-suss to my hardtail and expected to find fully-rigid a problem. In fact I came away wondering if the rigid nature was part of the appeal. I still find that one hard to believe. A bit of damped suspension must help and surely a fatbike with a suspension fork would be even better.

    Was the weight of the bike part of the appeal? Instinctively I think that a bike with the same geometry but a few pounds lighter (if such a thing exists) would have to be even better. But was the amazing stability actually due in part to the weight of this truck?

    When can I have another go ?

    rocketman
    Free Member

    So, even fatbikerists care about PBs?

    I borrowed matey’s Strava on Saturday and gave it back with 47 new PBs 🙂 There was an atmosphere on the way back I can tell you

    Why did I stand up so much

    I stand up a lot on mine. The lack of suspension is a factor but I think it has something to do with the dimensions. standing up climbing feels very similar to walking uphill, and booting it out of corners is great because it just grips and goes

    Why wasn’t I bothered by the lack of front suspension?

    It bothered me a lot at first but I’ve learned to ride accordingly (swoons)

    Was the weight of the bike part of the appeal?

    imho the stability is because thin tyres are fundamentally all wrong for off-road riding. They rely on clever tread patterns and compounds whereas in reality they are just too narrow. There’s a nice flat corner on my local loop & I’m currently working on getting my knee down

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    That’s an interesting one. I’ve never once wished for front suspension on my fatbike but I fitted the Rebas on the B+ the other day and noticed that it felt a bit “unbalanced” with front suspension and none at the back. This was resolved by lowering the rear tyre pressure to 10psi.

    My only thoughts are that I was hitting obstacles a bit harder with front suspension and the rear wasn’t really coping as well, whereas rigid front and rear forces me to take smoother lines.

    Having said that, I also have a Ragley Marley hardtail and I can’t say I’ve ever been bothered by lack of rear suspension in the same way.

    roverpig
    Full Member

    My only thoughts are that I was hitting obstacles a bit harder with front suspension and the rear wasn’t really coping as well, whereas rigid front and rear forces me to take smoother lines.

    Yes, I was having similar thoughts although, in my case, it was probably more a case of slowing down rather than taking smoother lines 🙂

    I know a lot of people love their hardtails, but I’ve never really found one that suits me. I guess it’s the old problem of the front end writing cheques the back end can’t cash. I end up feeling frustrated because I feel like I ought to be able to go faster (as the front is nicely controlled) but don’t like being bucked about by the bouncy rear and just end up wishing I was on my full-suss. At least with a rigid bike you don’t have any control at the front either, so just back off (or take a smoother line if you’ve got the skill).

    I was also surprised by how much I liked the lack of changes to geometry going downhill. I’d heard this mentioned a few times, but just dismissed it. But it was great being able to lean on the front without being pitched forward as the fork compressed.

    For riding fast down rocky stuff I like suspension at both ends (although I was surprised by how fast you could go just by staying lose). But for slower techy stuff (and slow is my default position when things get techy) I thought rigid was surprisingly good.

    roverpig
    Full Member

    I stand up a lot on mine. The lack of suspension is a factor but I think it has something to do with the dimensions. standing up climbing feels very similar to walking uphill, and booting it out of corners is great because it just grips and goes

    I’d not thought about it being similar to walking, but it did feel surprisingly natural to stand on the climbs. I’m sure you are right about the grip being a factor too. It’s perverse for a bike that should be so sluggish that it just felt such fun to try and sprint.

    imho the stability is because thin tyres are fundamentally all wrong for off-road riding. They rely on clever tread patterns and compounds whereas in reality they are just too narrow.

    Controversial! but it’s an interesting thought.

    Sanny
    Free Member

    I actually find the weight of the Truck to be an advantage, curiously. On climbs, it doesn’t get as easily knocked off line while the same is true on descents and super rocky sections of trail. I REALLY like the tyres. They just work! A great bike that is a lot of fun in my humble opinion. 😀

    roverpig
    Full Member

    Thanks Sanny, but is the fat caad 1 even better 🙂

    dovebiker
    Full Member

    I anticipate finding out (painfully!) at some point what the downhill limitations of a fatbike are – I’ve tried plenty of times and yet to find it by simply letting go and seeing where I ended up….safely at the bottom, somewhat shaken, but not stirred. I’ve had mates riding full-sussers attempt to get away, but once those big wheels get rolling, the backwards nervous glances start as they hear you coming.

    roverpig
    Full Member

    A great bike that is a lot of fun in my humble opinion

    It is strangely endearing isn’t it? I really enjoyed your long term reviews by the way.

    Going into the demo I thought there were only really a couple of possible outcomes. Either I’d conclude that it was fun for a day but not really for me (at least outside of winter). In which case I could forget about fat bikes at least for a few months. Or I’d find it fun enough to start contemplating replacing my chubby Solaris with something like the Scott Big Ed. At the time the Ed was cheaper than the ICT (although not now). More importantly it’s lighter and comes with a Bluto, which I was sure I’d want.

    What I didn’t expect was to like it so much that I would actually contemplate buying a 37lb rigid bike! But bikes are funny things in my experience. Sometimes you can take two that look almost identical on paper and one will really suit you while you can’t seem to get on with the other one at all. Even more weirdly, somebody else might ride the same two bikes and come to the opposite conclusion. So, when you ride one and love it, you have to take that seriously.

    Mind you, a lot of that could just be mental. I did ride the ICT around the Cairngorms on a lovely benign day with the first hint of spring in the air. Maybe it was just one of those days when any bike would have felt great.

    5thElefant
    Free Member

    So, even fatbikerists care about PBs? That blows my theory out of the water then

    My fat bike holds half my pbs and the rest are close 2nds. Only had it a month and it replaces a 10lb lighter carbon Scott Strike.

    I didn’t expect this. I bought it to allow me to go slow while walking the dog.

    metalheart
    Free Member

    Damn you, damn you all to hell! Looks like I’ll be taking a trip to Aviemore on Friday to check out ICTs (my mate lives just round the corner, handy!).

    RP, how was switching wheels on the Solaris? It would be a cheaper (semi fat) option I guess. Not likely to happen if I need to set up (hope) discs every time I want to swap….

    roverpig
    Full Member

    RP, how was switching wheels on the Solaris? It would be a cheaper (semi fat) option I guess. Not likely to happen if I need to set up (hope) discs every time I want to swap….

    I run Hope X2 brakes on the Solaris. I had Hope/Arch EX 29er wheels and switched to a set of Hope/WTB Asym B+ wheels (as supplied by Cotic). So both sets used the same Hope Pro II Evo hubs and all I did was bolt the same rotor on the B+ wheels. I didn’t have to adjust anything.

    By the way, if I do go down the fat route those B+ wheels will be for sale, so let me know if you are interested. The deal’s off if you nab the last large ICT in the country though 🙂

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    So, a question for all those currently considering a fatbike..

    Why now?

    Genuinely interested as there seems to have been a recent surge in interest, and it’s not even winter 😉

    metalheart
    Free Member

    Thanks RP, I’m running evo (probably 2’s) hubs at present so could well be interested in your wheels (assuming I don’t get the last L 😉 ).

    Colin: I watched a video of someone riding a ICT round Porc Rim, looked fun. Plus, I’ve truly embraced slow…. Aul age, disnae come itsel. 😳 plus I live by a river…

    Sanny
    Free Member

    The Dale and the Surly are very different beasts. I can’t choose between them as they both have their strengths. The Dale is fast and light. It is much closer to a normal mountain bike. The Truck is just a beast. It will tackle terrain that will stop pretty much any other bike. It climbs like a demon too. 😀

    thenorthwind
    Full Member

    Why now?

    Just a lot of people talking about it in general (inevitably generates interest), and more specifically enough people saying “it’s all I ride now” that it can’t just be a passing fad.

    Dale

    What is this bike of which you speak?

    Edit: oh, Cannondale? I’m obviously not down with the lingo

    roverpig
    Full Member

    So, a question for all those currently considering a fatbike..

    Why now?

    Genuinely interested as there seems to have been a recent surge in interest, and it’s not even winter

    It’s a good question and I agree that the timing is somewhat perverse. In my case the process went something like this:

    I put B+ wheels on my Solaris last September, just for a bit of fun. Thought it made the Solaris a much better trail bike, but I’ve already got a (full-suss) trail bike I like even more. Decided to try it as a winter bike to save a bit of wear and tear on the full-suss. Thought it worked pretty well, but as the winter dragged on I started wondering whether a “proper” fatbike would work even better. Booked a weekend in Aviemore a few weeks back (when it seemed the winter would never end) and negotiated a pass so that I could try a fatbike in the snow. By the time the weekend arrived the snow had gone from the places I could get to though. I thought of cancelling the demo, but you don’t waste a pass and well, you know the rest.

    The Dale and the Surly are very different beasts. I can’t choose between them as they both have their strengths. The Dale is fast and light. It is much closer to a normal mountain bike. The Truck is just a beast. It will tackle terrain that will stop pretty much any other bike. It climbs like a demon too

    Thanks, that’s very interesting. So the ‘dale would work better as a replacement for a “regular” trail bike, but the ICT may work better as an n+1.

    mudplugga
    Free Member

    Just finished building an on one fatty trail. Got the frame for a bargain £84!!!!
    .weighs in at 29lb.goes up big hills like a mountain train!! Out of the saddle no tyre slippage at all, so you can just mash it up the incline.
    Gyro effect of the big tyres at speed takes some getting used to tho.
    Love it!!!!

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