another crap dangerous day on London's Roads

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  • another crap dangerous day on London's Roads
  • Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/cyclist-hit-by-lorry-dies-and-hours-later-another-left-fighting-for-life-after-coach-crash-8923706.html

    Im quite glad that i dont have any of the superhighways on my commute, I think theyd give me a false sense of security, Im constantly on the look out to be taken out by a vehicle from any direction

    timbo678
    Member

    I nearly got hit this morning, small but busy roundabout, lady pulls out and nearly clips me…must have been an inch from my rear wheel

    it was daylight (but peeing down), I was in a Hi-Viz, with bright & flashing lights and I was in the middle of the lane on the roundabout…can’t work out how she didn’t see me – be safe people!

    P.s. not in London by the way, deepest Wiltshire

    eyerideit
    Member

    Shit, I was at Southampton Row just after it happened and saw him being the being attended to. It was reported to be a woman on LFGSS.

    As for the Mile one – horrible, another careless c*nt driving a tipper lorry. Ban the f*cking things.

    Premier Icon njee20
    Subscriber

    Sounds like CS2 is seriously dodgy! I find CS7 ok I must say, not perfect, but the volume of cyclists is a help.

    ti_pin_man
    Member

    its just so an everyday occurance now. 🙁

    This morning, as the light was coming up, on a VERY wide road, with all my lights on and riding in the assertive but not aggressive metre from curb, some random driver decides to beep at me, frankly you could get a bus past without worrying a cyclist on this road.

    … its just surreal, the abuse is relentless.

    mind, a beep is nothing compared to what happens elsewhere but its just so completely random.

    the abuse is relentless.

    I must be riding in a different city, then. Abuse? Never get any. At all.

    Premier Icon zilog6128
    Subscriber

    some random driver decides to beep at me, frankly you could get a bus past without worrying a cyclist on this road.

    I have had this happen a few times. One time it was a lady driving a Fiat 500 (of course!) who beeped me a couple of times (this was a straight road with only me and her on it at the time) then overtook, screaming “read the **** highway code!” at me as she passed. Some people are just thick I think. Unfortunate that they are allowed behind the wheel of a car though.

    theflatboy
    Member

    I got some serious beeping and a close swipe on an empty road the other day, I was riding far enough out to anticipate getting into the right lane in about 200 metres without any issues, though there didn’t seem to be anyone around, when a chap desperate to get the green light at the junction ahead came flying by beeping all the way… I often don’t quite get what people are in such a rush to do.

    will
    Member

    CaptainFlashheart – Member
    I must be riding in a different city, then. Abuse? Never get any. At all.

    Agreed.

    Gary_M
    Member

    Its not safe on any road really and people really need to be careful how they ride. I was riding home on Monday night between Shawlands and Giffnock in Glasgow. I passed a couple of guys riding separately, got to the next set of lights and as there was a bus at the front I stayed behind that as I knew the lights would be changing soon. One of the guys I passed then passed me and goes up the side of bus, lights then changed, if the bus had turned left he’d have been under it – its indicator wasn’t on but that means nothing.

    Got a few sets up lights further along the road and the other guy I passed does the same thing up the inside of a City Sprinter bus only to then hold up the traffic as he was slow. Now for anyone that rides in Glasgow they will be aware of the City sprinter buses, driven by what must be the worst drivers on earth.

    You can’t prevent people pulling out in front of you at junctions, you can do your best to be visible and make eye contact but you can protect yourself by not riding up the side of large vehicles, or any vehicle for that matter, if you don’t know the sequence of the lights. And don’t ever sit just in front of a bus, truck, etc.

    Premier Icon crazy-legs
    Subscriber

    I know that Vernon Place/Southampton Row junction in Holborn very well, ridden it countless times. Normally I’m trying to turn right at that junction, along Theobald’s Road.

    It’s a bloody horrible road, bus lanes constantly blocked by lorries unloading, traffic moving between 1, 2 and 3 lanes, everyone trying to manoeuvre across lanes, buses swinging wide to make that turn.

    Awful. Hope the guy pulls through.

    bigyinn
    Member

    This disturbs be signifcantly:-

    The [truck] driver stopped further down the road and was questioned under caution by officers. He was not arrested.

    Ok im going be initial accounts, but it sounds like the truck literally drove over him. HTF is that an arrestable offence?

    Gary_M
    Member

    HTF is that an arrestable offence?

    I presume those on the scene have more details and are able to judge better than you?

    Premier Icon njee20
    Subscriber

    I must be riding in a different city, then. Abuse? Never get any. At all.

    Me neither.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    Dont really suffer abuse, but yesterday a guy in a tow truck nearly took me out overtaking me through a set of traffic lights, it was the tailgate of his truck that was a few cm from my head, caughtup with him at the next set of lights he didnt have a clue what I was gesticulating at him about.

    My biggest complaint is probably people overtaking me and then turning left in front of me almost straight away

    Premier Icon crazy-legs
    Subscriber

    My biggest complaint is probably people overtaking me and then turning left in front of me almost straight away

    Mine is people who overtake into width restricted areas or to get to the back end of a traffic jam that they can clearly see 200m in front or with oncoming traffic that they have to stop for. Just no forethought at all, a purely selfish me, me, me attitude which seems all-pervasive these days on the roads.

    Radio 4 now…

    Gary_M
    Member

    My biggest complaint is probably people overtaking me and then turning left in front of me almost straight away

    If possible you need to move further into the road when approaching a left hand junction. This will greatly reduce the chances of a driver overtaking then cutting in.

    ti_pin_man
    Member

    by abuse I meant near misses not just verbal or audible abuse. Seeing things all the time where cars abuse us, its how it can feel some days.

    brooess
    Member

    London isn’t too bad with respect to abuse from people driving. They’re used to it + they don’t have any expectations about getting anywhere fast in the first place. It’s a great example of the ‘numbers’ argument – the more people cycle, the better it gets.

    I think a lot of people riding have poor awareness of where the risk comes from, and how they can inadvertently put themselves at risk – too many anecdotes to list on here…

    However, riding round Bromley last Saturday and the Kent lanes at the weekends with my club it’s a different story. Too many ill-educated, aggressive bullies behind the wheel… I’m getting very tired of being harassed tbh.

    But more importantly, thoughts go out to those injured this week. We have to use these incidents as leverage to change everyone’s behaviour: cyclists, drivers and pedestrians, so that cycling can be safe and fun

    bigyinn
    Member

    bigyinn – Member

    This disturbs be signifcantly:-

    The [truck] driver stopped further down the road and was questioned under caution by officers. He was not arrested.

    Ok im going be initial accounts, but it sounds like the truck literally drove over him. HTF is that an arrestable offence?
    Apologies, I meant to say

    HTF is that not an arrestable offence?

    Premier Icon kilo
    Subscriber

    You can arrest under PACE for any offence however in law there has to be a necessity to arrest, if the driver for example has given you full I.d, has a stable traceable address, answered questions or you are not in a position to interview for an offence there and then, the necessity to arrest threshold may not have been reached. You can always interview and arrest at a later stage.

    brakes
    Member

    horrible news.
    it’s always large vehicles involved – why don’t people have the common sense to just steer clear of them and keep out of harm’s way?

    Gary_M
    Member

    why don’t people have the common sense to just steer clear of them and keep out of harm’s way?

    I don’t know, its odd, you would think self preservation would kick in but a lot of people I see on my commute are under the impression that drivers should be in a position to make allowances for whatever random stuff they do on the road. When I saw the first guy squeezing between the kerb and the bus, I thought ‘I wouldn’t do that’, when the lights changed I thought ‘that’s suicide’.

    I was going to say to one of the guys the other night but I moved into the flow of traffic to pass him so didn’t get the opportunity. From past experience they don’t tend to take any advice on board and you just end up getting abuse.

    Premier Icon funkrodent
    Subscriber

    Two incidents come to mind. One was a couple of years ago in East London, it was a driver who overtook in heavy traffic and then actively blocked me from going past him when the traffic started to back up 50m ahead. I came alongside and asked him the issue and he said I had delayed his journey. To which I replied (sanitized version) “Where exactly did you think you were going in such a hurry you nice man, given that there seemed to be a rather large traffic jam up ahead that has now indeed blocked any speedy progress by you”. That was mild mind you compared to a white van man whose windscreen I put through with a D-Lock years ago. In fairness he had spat at me when I remonstrated with him for some appalling driving.*

    * I was 18 at the time and a cycle courier, perhaps a bit hot-headed. I know this behaviour is wrong, that there are no winners and I don’t in the least condone this.

    Bottom line though is that there are lots of nasty, impatient, aggressive people out there and lots of them drive cars. You’re never going to eradicate that sort of behaviour.

    Other incident was this morning when two cyclists in front of me squeezed (and I mean squeezed, their drop handle-bars just fit in the gap) between a bus in a bus-stop and the bus that had pulled up next to it because of the lights. When they were half-way down between the two the lights changed and the outer bus moved off, with the inner one also pulling out alongside it. I shut my eyes, expecting the worst. Miraculously they somehow passed through unscathed, but they were very, very lucky.

    I guess the lesson is that there will always be some 4rs3holes on the road, but we don’t help ourselves if we undertake kamikaze maneouvres…

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    then overtook, screaming “read the **** highway code!” at me as she passed.

    A peruse of the helmetcam YouTube videos, CycleHatred tweets or just local newspaper comments reveals that many drivers seem to be utterly convinced that the Highway Code has a section in it which says cyclists should only ever ride with their wheels rubbing against the edge of the kerb and should always give way to cars regardless of the road layout.

    ti_pin_man: you’re local yeah? Have you joined the Newcastle Cycle Campaign?
    It’s free and they are trying to improve things in the toon.
    They played a big part in securing the Cycling Ambition funds and are currently hosting a “Love Cycling Go Dutch” conference at the Civic Centre.

    ti_pin_man
    Member

    you’re local yeah

    GrahamS – sent direct email.

    EDIT: my current hobby is telling numpty leisure cyclists to get some lights, I say it politely honest guv. 😉

    Premier Icon neil the wheel
    Subscriber

    you can protect yourself by not riding up the side of large vehicles, or any vehicle for that matter,

    “Love Cycling Go Dutch” conference at the Civic Centre.

    I was at this conference and had a bit of a chat with a Dutch cycle path designer (now working in the UK) about how some cycle lanes seem designed to put people in dangerous places. The worst are at light controlled junctions with ASL’s where the cycle lane that gives riders access to the junction box go up the inside of the left hand lane – exactly where you shouldn’t be. We agreed that there should be some system of legal redress against authorities that install worse-than-nothing facilities of this kind that lead to accidents and injuries or deaths.

    mrmo
    Member

    a couple of points i note, the victims were men, which makes a change.

    The first a tipper truck nothing unusual in that, the second a coach. If you look at the demands for redesign of trucks you can see it won’t solve the problem, it may help, Coaches have a reasonably low driver position.

    I do wonder how the truck driver wasn’t aware, it sounds from the statements that he went over teh top of the cyclist! I note there were traffic lights, so i guess the question is had the cyclist used an ASL or got in the front blind spot of the truck????? or was the driver not payign attention????

    I guess all will become clear, but on recent form the punishmetn to the driver won’t be different if he is guilty or innocent.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    If you look at the demands for redesign of trucks you can see it won’t solve the problem, it may help,

    I think this design:

    Certainly offers better visibility than this one:

    If nothing else it means the driver has a better chance of seeing what is directly in front of his cab:

    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYo3kORaXAo[/video]

    😯

    Gary_m re the giffnock-Shawlands stretch. In total agreement. It’s a fatality waiting to happen. I’ve talked to GCC about it with little comeback but will try again-may get more notice with commonwealth games around the corner. Sadly though I don’t think a standalone cycle lane would be feasible due residents parking, which means there’s always going to be the idiots who force their way up the inside of the buses

    mrmo
    Member

    GrahamS it will help, but it isn’t a pancea. If you look at the coaches front end design it isn’t a million miles from what is being proposed for trucks.

    Redesign would help but as you see the coach already has a lower driving position similar to the concept truck (except the passenger door isn’t fully glazed) but it didn’t help in this case.

    I think the big issue here is that to make a lower cab, the tractor unit has got to be longer as the engine can’t be under the driver. That means making the trailers shorter, which is extremely costly in load space and number of lorries on the road, or increasing the allowable length of the tractor units, which would need a Europe wide change in the law to become effective.

    Gary_M
    Member

    The cycle lane heading into the city is unusable for a stretch anyway, very badly surfaced, parking spaces filled with cars tight against the cycle path – the section between Nether Auldhouse road and Auldhouse road, I always ride outwith the path in the morning. I remember a post on here moaning about people not using that path, the person obviously hadn’t ridden it. Heading out of the city isn’t so bad on that stretch though.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    GrahamS it will help, but it isn’t a pancea.

    Agreed.

    I think the big issue here is that to make a lower cab, the tractor unit has got to be longer…

    Or more succinctly “it will cost money and no one puts people before profits unless they are forced to do so by law” 🙁

    I think the first thing is to simply ban HGVs and tipper trucks from operating in bust city centres at least during peak times.

    When I see an image like this:

    I don’t think “Oooh they should be careful around that truck”. Instead I just think “Why the HELL do we allow a vehicle with that big a blind spot to drive through busy city streets at rush hour??”

    ….and how perfectly the ‘no zone’ lines up with ASL and ASL feeder lane.

    I’m not sure why we allow coaches into Zone 1/2 either. They’re, like big trucks, vehicles that are built for a completely different sort of road (basically motorways) – should be ‘park and ride – coach stations on the tube system but not central’. Buses can be dangerous, and driven by idiots, but their general visibility is a lot better as are their turning circles. A coach has to pull out a long way to turn left – which is what it looks like may have happened in Holborn.

    You can rattle on about it but ultimately putting cyclists and large vehicles in the same space doesn’t end well. I had a near miss from a National Express coach this week. Straight piece of road, I was well out from the kerb, nothing coming the other way – he just didn’t bother pulling over nearly far enough. If you’re close enough to touch, you’re too close.

    taxi25
    Member

    Mine is people who overtake into width restricted areas or to get to the back end of a traffic jam that they can clearly see 200m in front or with oncoming traffic that they have to stop for. Just no forethought at all, a purely selfish me, me, me attitude which seems all-pervasive these days on the roads.

    Mine as well, if you ride around S.Wales you’ll have noticed the speed camera in Groes-faen. With a westerly you can easily ride through it at 30mph. That’s what I was doing when a car flew past me just before it at 40mph + then panic braked down to 25, only just missed them ! Realy hoped they’d blow through it and get a flash.

    cynic-al
    Member

    On the face of it, it does beggar belief that the driver in a fatal RTC is cautioned at the scene.

    Premier Icon kennyp
    Subscriber

    … its just surreal, the abuse is relentless.

    Nope, not everywhere. I cycling through the centre of Edinburgh every day and very, very rarely ever get any abuse.

    >On the face of it, it does beggar belief that the driver in a fatal RTC is [not?] cautioned at the scene.

    gwaelod
    Member

    Mine as well, if you ride around S.Wales you’ll have noticed the speed camera in Groes-faen. With a westerly you can easily ride through it at 30mph. That’s what I was doing when a car flew past me just before it at 40mph + then panic braked down to 25, only just missed them ! Realy hoped they’d blow through it and get a flash.

    I know that camera….I’ve never managed to trigger it though ;-(

    Premier Icon kilo
    Subscriber

    cynic-al – Member

    On the face of it, it does beggar belief that the driver in a fatal RTC is cautioned at the scene.

    He might not be arrested if the investigating officer is satisfied that he can get hold of him later and there’s not an immediate need to deal with him (i.e drink driving)as mentioned before neccesity to arrest. If he was arrested straight away he would be custodised brought in for interview with a brief and the officers may have little to ask him as the scene might not have been fully analysed, cctv obtained and witness statements taken, so in effect are running down the custody clock for no effective purpose. Far better to have all your ducks in a row before getting to that stage.

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Subscriber

    Four mates and I were cautioned after mate no.6 had bad MTB accident on Helvellyn and it was looking touch and go if he would live. I would certainly expect a driver to be spoken to under caution.

    Someone mentioned Radio4 earlier. The programme was discussing a system which can be installed in trucks and on bikes. The bike unit (a tiny transmitter) costs just £20. The truck’s unit was a fair bit more… There seemed to be four sensors on the truck – front, back, left and right. If a cyclist with a chip fitted was anywhere near the truck, an audible “Cyclist” alarm sounded in the cab.

    There followed a decent debate about whether this would actually make drivers more complacent and less safe, as they would be more reliant on the system and pay less attention to the road.

    Personally, I reckon it’s worth a try, and if I commuted by bike, I’d happily spend the £20, even if only half the trucks on the road had the system installed.

    mrmo
    Member

    @user-removed, the problem with the system you are mentioning, is simply complacency.

    Same as most of these “solutions” they don’t really deal with the problem. The more drivers believe that no one else has rights the worse it gets. If drivers think all cyclists have these tags they will switch off even more. If they expect cyclists to wear Hi-Viz then Hi-Viz is what they will look for.

    In my head there are two fundamental issues, drivers and cyclists. Both not having either enough training or common sense. I see plenty of drivers breaking the law every day, jumping red lights, speeding, phones etc. the i see cyclists doing stupid things, squeezing up the side of trucks and buses, jumping off pavements, etc.

    Quite how you deal with both groups? A start would be enforcement of existing laws!

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