Yes they do. You are not the only person we are monitoring.

kimbers – Member
any drug for pregnant mothers would have to be tested on pregnant animals under mopern guidelines, we would have prevented the thalidomide babies being born

OR not because science/evidence /opinion/data is not absolute on this matter.

“There is at present no hard evidence to show the value of more extensive and more prolonged laboratory testing as a method of reducing eventual risk in human patients. In other words the predictive value of studies carried out in animals is uncertain… With thalidomide, for example, it is only possible to produce specific deformities in a very small number of species of animal. In this particular case, therefore, it is unlikely that specific tests in pregnant animals would have given the necessary warning: the right species would probably never have been used.” ( Professor George Teeling-Smith, in A Question of Balance; the benefits and risks of pharmaceutical innovation, p 29, publ. Office of Health Economics, 1980)
“…rats are refractory to thalidomide-induced teratogenesis” (Neurotoxicol Teratol. 2001 May-Jun;23(3):255-64. Neurobehavioral teratogenic effects of thalidomide in rats. Vorhees CV, Weisenburger WP, Minck DR)
“We chose a dose of thalidomide close to the estimated amount required to produce human anomalies. This dose had no detectable toxic effects in the monkey” (Science 1963;139:1294-95)
“Grünenthal has tried to reproduce phocomelia in rats, mice, and rabbits and has failed, In Keil the drug was fed to hens and the chicks were normal.” (Helen Taussig, Journal of the American Medical Association, June 30, 1962: A Study of the German Outbreak of Phocomelia: The Thalidomide Syndrome)
“Numerous attempts to reproduce the malformations which occured in human babies from Thalidomide-treated mothers have met with only limited success. Although many representatives of aves [birds] and mammalian experimental species have been investigated for this purpose, the results fall short of paralleling the effect of the drug on the human foetus.” (Nature 1966;210:958-959)
“More than 800 chemicals have been defined as teratogens in laboratory animals, but only a few of these, approximately 20, have been shown to be teratogenic in humans. This discrepancy can be attributed to differences in metabolism, sensitivity and exposure time.” (Dr Beat Schmid, Trends in Pharmacological Sciences; 8:133, 1987)
“In approximately 10 strains of rats, 15 strains of mice, 11 breeds of rabbits, 2 breeds of dogs, 3 strains of hamsters, 8 species of primates and in other such varied species as cats, armadillos, guinea pigs, swine and ferrets in which thalidomide has been tested, teratogenic effects have been induced only occasionally.” (Schardein, JL, Drugs as Teratogens, 1976 and Schardein, JL, Chemically Induced Birth Defects, Marcel Dekker 1985)

We have got slightly off topic here but they do not guarantee that there wil be no side effects on humans even though they have been tested on animals. It would clearly be foolish of me to argue they are not the MOST effective method but it is not without the risk of error be it bad science, poor design or inherent weaknesses of the methodology.
Whatever it is I would still class it as cruel to the animal … necessary I am not fully convinced but cruel I am convinced.
At least we have remained polite though and in that spirit yes you clearly know more on this area than I do.

And yes, I’ve heard all the ‘practical’ arguments, thank you very much. We all know there are far more effective ways to keep fox populations down.

Take away their Barry White collection and alcohol/tabs?

Thalidomide administration during early gestation results in specific and dramatic limb defects in primates,
Arch Toxicol. 1996;70(11):749-56.

The toxic metabolite of thalidomide was not produced by rat liver microsomes (the rat is not sensitive to thalidomide teratogenesis) but was produced by hepatic preparations from maternal rabbits, and rabbit, monkey, and human (all sensitive species) fetuses. A toxic arene oxide therefore may be involved in the teratogenicity of thalidomide.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1981 Apr;78(4):2545-8.

Oral administration of thalidomide in single or multiple (3-day) treatment periods to pregnant green monkeys between days 28 and 33 resulted in defects of the limbs which resemble those observed in macaques and baboons
Teratology. 1978 Dec;18(3):393-404.

all this evidence indicates to me that not enough animal testing was conducted on thalidamide

I’ve no been wholly convinced by either sides arguments around fox hunting TBH. I’ve seen the results of enough hunts first hand to know that foxes aren’t ripped to pieces, and I’m not certain that the average hunt runs long enough to produce massive suffering in terms of exhaustion and so on. Once dogs have a scent, and a fox is flushed into open ground it’s a matter of minutes, not hours before it’s all done, and it’s all too easy to see this as a class thing. Ask the average Joe in the street, and to 99% of folk it’s a toffs game. It often isn’t in reality, but given all the hoopla that surrounds it, they (the Hunts) don’t do themselves any favours.

Having said all that, The Hunts can’t claim it’s pest control, and at the same time claim not to kill that many, the only figures I’ve ever seen claimed a yearly hunt kill of about 13000, out of a population of about 200K-250k, so not massively effective, but still a huge number of dead animals, it’s one or t’other. Fox populations do need to be controlled, I’m just not certain hunting is the best way. Hunts also need to be more open about damage to Hound Packs, and the real amounts of work created by hunting (not much really) Lots of people in Britain find hunting with dogs morally wrong, so the onus is on the Hunts to justify themselves, and just saying “Townies don’t understand” really isn’t good enough.

It’s an emotive issue the whole hunting thing. (not sh&^ sherlock)

re the hunting thing

a mate of mine was a stable girl when she was younger
she hated the rich hunt guys coz some of them were quite happy to ride the horses into the nackers yard for the sake of a good hunt

re the hunting thing

a mate of mine was a stable girl when she was younger
she loved the hunt guys coz some of them were quite happy to ride the horses and pay her wages to look after the horses properly for the sake of a good hunt

Two sides and all that….

actualy my mate looked down on most men as she prefers ladies

Pics?
In jodphurs?

😉

kimbers – Member
all this evidence indicates to me that not enough animal testing was conducted on thalidamide

well if it was anything but this topic I would be agreeing as what else can science do when their is uncertaintity but gather more data. Unfortunately in this case though that data inherently requires the suffering of animals and you (well possibly anyway and not said in an insulting manner legal free choice and all that) and other scientist do choose to do this.
Personally I would not. It is not bad science to gather evidence but it is somewhat hypocrtical (speciesism iirc the animal libs call it) as I assume no one would do these experiments on humans and it is fair to say (without getting anthropormophic)that animals are capable of feeling pain and suffering just as much as a human is.