RudeBoy – Member
I see fox hunting as similar to football hooliganism. Still people venting natural aggression, in a negative and counter-productive manner. Just different classes.

Brilliant, just brilliant! I would so dearly love you to come and tell some of the car mechanics, farm hands, stable lads, roof tilers, plasterers et al that I hunt with that they’re “posh”.

Once more, we see that the hunting ban was really never about animals, just some sad perpetuation of inverse (and ignorant, as it was wrong) snobbery.

For once I am goign to have to agree with the Captain.

I know a fair few people that hunt and they are what I would class as “normal” people. Not a toff amongst them. One is a mechanic, one is glass engraver, another’s a plasterer.

Ok, the whole thing about killing foxes that way is not my cup of tea, but far more foxes are shot over a year than that, so my personal view is that Labour wanted to make a point about still being Labour. Unfortunately, it’s just not worked.

Hmm think it depends where you are. My dad grew up in Patterdale and said the hunt there was just a practical thing done by ordinary people, mostly on foot.

Moved to Kirkby Lonsdale and it was a big jolly for pissed up, arrogant snobs. They used to congregate at a pub next to ours and the ‘anti-social behaviour’ was appalling.

Ok, sorry;

‘Ordinary plebs trying to be posh’, then… Hardly a ‘working class’ activity, is it? Let’s face it, it’s only in more recent times, that the lower classes have actually got onto the horses themselves. Traditionally, it was always an upper class activity.

Seriously, what’s fox hunting about? Not about hunting, is it? No, come on, be honest; it’s about looking the big tough hunter, is not it? Showing off how big and brave you are.

Not a lot different to footy thugs really, when you strip it all down.

No matter what bright red jacket you put on it…

‘Ordinary plebs trying to be posh’, then…

Again, come and tell the some of the folks that they are “plebs trying to be posh”….. 😀

Traditionally, it was always an upper class activity.

Again, wrong. It’s a rural activity, not an upper class one.

Oh behave yourself Flashy. S’only the nobs who’ve been able to afford the horses, stables, servants etc needed to hunt. I spose these days, you pay a membership fee?

Captain Flashfart, earlier:

the money is not very good in animal research, anyone who says otherwise is talking bollox

and animal work is a vital part of medical research

no animal experiments, no new drugs, simple as

just wait to you get diagnosed with cancer, and a 3rd of us will,
see if your compassion for animals is stronger than your desire for a few more years with the latest drugs

I see where your coming from kimbers. Paying someone else to do the dirty work, turn a blind eye so to speak as its a necessary evil. The cancer-bit though, our society is awash in chemicals, food additives, preservatives and cigarettes. Why isn’t the millions upon well billions over the years turned against these sort of areas? This comes across as a simplified and naive viewpoint but looking for a cure to cancer (in part) is trying to stop something after the horse has bolted.

I’ve lost the thread of Rudeboy’s argument slighty, but I think it is that fox hunting is wrong, cruel and immoral because it is posh whereas anything done by genuine proles involving a ferret and some flat caps is all rather noble and good fun.

😉

Hmm, I was wondering when this sort of topic would pop up on here again.

Unfortunately it confirms my suspiscions that a lot of people on STW have very narrow minded views and opinions, basically thinking what they are told to think be the mass media etc.

Rudeboy – you are the classic example. Yep, thats a great picture you’ve posted there but have you actually had any contact with people who hunt (other than maybe the odd bit of random abuse throwing). I don’t see any logic to your arguments. I’ve heard some pretty bizarre comparisons when it comes to hunting but football hooliganism? And as for the “it’s all toffs on a blood rush” – yep, keep reading the papers and stay away from the real world if you like.

Fox hunting can be quite dangerous for the horse rider depending on the pace/cross country and any obstacles. I do feel it is an inhumane act though as the Fox does suffer through fear and of course for the few moments when it is caught. Better would be a pride of live and hungry Tigers with the hunters only allowed to carry .22 pistols to defend themselves. That should even up the odds somewhat.
Foxes are ‘vermin’ however there are less cruel ways of controlling their numbers that a symbolic archaic act thats classed as ‘heritage’. So is hung drawn and quartering and the stocks but you dont see that nowadays.

have you actually had any contact with people who hunt

Thing is though, I have (lived in rural areas most of my life) and a lot of them are arrogant, badly-behaved snobs I’m afraid. Like I said I don’t think all hunts/hunters are like that, but in my experience a lot are.

hora while smoking and environment is a massive factor in cancer
an even bigger factor is genetics
cancer is innevitable our DNA eventually reaches a stage where mutations cannot be repaired
not to mention alzheimers, and thousands of other diseases affecting young and old
as we live longer these diseases become more prevalent
people howl and wail at the newspapers when their mum is denied the latest breast cancer drug, they dont care that 300 mice died to get it to the clinic

and you still didnt answer my question, would u turn down such a drug if offered?
and that means any drug you have ever taken, they have all been tested on animals

Any form of hunting, that is for the main purpose of obtaining food, as long as it’s done as humanely as possible, is fine. Any form of hunting that involves undue suffering to an animal, is barbaric and should be banned.

Hare coursing and Badger baiting, traditional ‘working class’ activities, are banned, and rightly so. Rabbiting with Ferrets? Well, I dunno; is there not a more humane way of killing the rabbits? Does seem a bit cruel, but I don’t know much about it, tbh.

Hora, I’m going to stick my head up again and say that the reason that hanging, drawing and quartering got banned ages ago but fox hunting didn’t is that there is an important moral difference between humans and foxes. As I thought there was between humans and snack size microwaveable ready-kittens…

😉

Hora – yes, I think blaming “chemicals and food additives” for cancer is a bit simplistic/naive. An awful lot of research has been aimed at these chemical and yes there have been some link shown (esp to cigarettes but thats people’s own doing). There have also been a lot of infectious/viral causes of cancer identified and I think that’s going to be a more likely route in the future (see vaccines for cervical cancer etc).

I’m sure people dont realise just how much research and money is spent trying to avoid animal tesing. Whilst I don’t enjoy the fact that it goes on, the sad fact is we’d be a much shorter living, more diseased population if it didn’t. Who has refused medication/treatments here because it had been tested on animals.

To extend our lives where do we stop? Ethics. The use of fetal/embryos and stem cells just to extend our lives? Why in the western world are we so afraid of death?

Not afraid of death. Just not keen on going back 100 years to an age where falling off your bike and catching your calf on the chain ring could lead to death from gangrene 😉

but have you actually had any contact with people who hunt

Yes, actually. Quite a few, over the years. And not one of them has ever managed to justify the unnecessary suffering of foxes caused by this method of ‘vermin control’. Hmm, chasing an animal for miles, to the point where it is exhausted and terrified, then have a pack of baying hounds rip it to pieces; that’s ‘fun’, is it? Good Lord… and maybe hunting types need a bit of a PR makeover. Most of the ones I’ve met have been upper middle class. I’ve seen a couple of pro-hunting demos in London; not exactly an eclectic mix of people, hardly a great representation of a particularly ‘inclusive’ social activity! Most of ’em seemed quite well to do, really. Quite a few ‘Hooray Henry’ types. I’m sorry, but it’s what I saw. And whenever you get people on the telly, going on about how great hunting is, they’re usually a bit ‘posh’. Unless they rope in some ‘yokel’ to try and promote a ‘classless’ image of hunting.

And yes, I’ve heard all the ‘practical’ arguments, thank you very much. We all know there are far more effective ways to keep fox populations down.

You know I’m right, as well, really, don’t you?

Well as for hunting it’s another debate. The day you’ll get a hunter pointing a shot gun at you and saying get out of my way you scum mountainbikers you might get a different view. I have been there and it’s all but a Nice experience.

Animal testing – my info may well be out of date but when I was at uni there were vivsection labs run by post grad students replicating already known research to practice research methods. There is also animal testing for weapons research

animal testing for cosmetics – does it still happen?

I believe there is a place for animal testing but at maybe 10% of the level it is at now – and IIRC there are serious doubts about the application of some animal testing results to humans.

“The unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible”

Oscar Wilde

Says it all really.

Fox hunting is riddled with illegal activity from trespass to threatening behaviour to digging up foxes gone to earth to feeding foxes to increase populations for hunting.

TJ, that’s bollox.

True, some people might get a little arsey when some “sab” deliberately gets in the way of their half tonne horse, but if people who did n;t like cycling kept getting in the way of your bike and you, wouldn’t you get a little annoyed? “Sabs” really enjoying winding people up and viceotaping the results.

As for only posh people having horses, that’s shite too. I’ll mention that to the people I know with horses, that spend just about every spare penny they own on the dame things, getting up at 6am to put them out. It’s a fool’s game, but it does not make them any more posh.

The feeding foxes thing is shite too as well. If these people are “posh” or landowners or farmers, there is no way they would voluntarily increase the population of a predator that is quite happy ruining their livestock.

I will readily agree that it’s a bloody stupid way to reduce the population of foxes in an area though. Shooting them is a much more effective way to do it.

“hora – Member
Cruelty to animals. They always say ‘treated like a dog’ to describe maltreatment.
The animal testers don’t have to to test on animals. They can work somewhere else in medicine right? Oh I get it, the money is very good in animal research?
“

simple economics, the less desirable (in this case moraly reprihensible) the job the better paid it is. No one wants to be a bin man, so it has to pay better than stacking shelves etc…….

If “they” didnt do it, then the wages would just go up untill “they” (or someone else) did.

Willard – all those things I mentioned have been reported in the press on several occasions.

“The Royal Beaufort Hunt in Gloucestershire, followed by the Prince of Wales and Princes William and Harry, was under investigation last night after anti-hunt campaigners disclosed television footage showing foxes allegedly being fed to maintain their numbers for sport.

The clandestine film of a member of the hunt feeding cubs undermines claims of fox-hunters that hunts control fox numbers. Members of the International Fund for Animal Welfare who released the film said trading standards officers were investigating possible breaches of wildlife rules. IFAW’s chief executive Mike Baker said: “The Prince now knows where his foxes come from and we are certain that he will no longer want to ride out with this particular hunt.”

Mark Sprake of the Masters of Fox Hounds Association said conservation measures were needed in parts of the countryside; otherwise foxes “would be wiped out altogether”. “We have always argued in keeping a balanced population,” he said. But he added: “I was unaware that this was going on and if a formal complaint is made it will be looked into.”

From http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/working-class-hunts-could-be-saved-715456.html

Not an isolated incedent – many more examples same with the tresspass

http://www.nwlacs.co.uk/archive/cheshire_cf_97_trespass.htm for one well documented case

http://www.defra.gov.uk/rural/hunting/inquiry/evidence/wsbpg.htm

And so on and so on.

Still as mtbers I quite not understand how anyone enjoying riding off road can agree with the idea of hunting…

TJ, that’s bollox.

True, some people might get a little arsey when some “sab” deliberately gets in the way of their half tonne horse, but if people who did n;t like cycling kept getting in the way of your bike and you, wouldn’t you get a little annoyed? “Sabs” really enjoying winding people up and viceotaping the results

I don’t think that TJ is talking bollox at all. I live and work in rural Devon. I see the hunt a lot. The South Devon hunt is based just outside of my village. IME they are extremely hostile, aggressive and exclusive to everyone outside of their circle. You don’t have to be a “sab” to feel bullied by these people. Roads are deliberately blocked, access is denied and if you’re not part of what they are doing, you are made to feel distinctly uncomfortable.

As for all this bleating I hear about “unjust laws”, I think these people need to realise that the sport is banned because an overwhelming majority of the country are opposed to it. If they want to claim that it’s a rural activity that town people don’t understand, then it’s worth reminding them that without the taxes and income of those town people then the countryside would be on its arse.

For the record, I’m not opposed to fox hunting at all. I just hate the arrogant attitude of those hunt supporters who think that they only have to abide by the laws that suit them.

kimbers
cancer is innevitable [sic] our DNA eventually reaches a stage where mutations cannot be repaired

Surely the question is why experiment on animals to stop an inevitable illness bit pointless.

Willard how much to own a horse then for 10 years to go hunting. All in stabling vets. ferriers, equipment, transport, food etc etc ….. then remember it is not exclusive!!!!! Like arguing that the £1000 per year membership of the local Golf club is not exclusive because anyone can join when in reality not everyone can afford it….. hence exclusive.

Fox hunting FFS Sport my @rse, egalitarian my @rse no one on my council estate owned a horse or when fox hunting but plenty of “town dwelling country types” did turn up to engage in this activity.
Most people object to fox hunting not because they object to hunting per se but because they object to killing things for sport BIG DIFFERENCE… If you are going to eat it (what hunting was originally) then fair enough but to do this for fun ….. really does worry me that someone can kill an animal for pleasure. If you do it for other reasons then do a trail hunt then and don’t smear blood on virgins etc as the kill is not important. Like badger baiting and cock fighting rightly outlawed.

I believe there is a place for animal testing but at maybe 10% of the level it is at now – and IIRC there are serious doubts about the application of some animal testing results to human

TJ u are talking bollox here, do you have any idea how many drugs fall by the wayside in development, anything as ridiculously complex as the human body and diseases requires a massive amount of testing

and animal models followed by clinical trials are essential

otherwise we would see this happening every other week rather than on a rare occurrence like this

linky

and without proper testing you would have thalidomide crisis all over again, animal testing would have prevented that drug from ever reaching the clinic

but far more foxes are shot over a year than that

Many, many more are run over by traffic…so what then?

We should all get a limitless supply of foxes on the NHS?

😉

Kimbers – I am perfectly willing to accept that some trials are needed. I know for a fact that some are unnecessary – weapons testing on animals? I know that 20 odd years ago at manchester uni there was a lot of animal testing done unnecessarily by post grad students replicating known stuff – this may well have stopped by now as I said in my post.

Thalidomide was animal tested before release according to the references I can find – but not as thourghouly as it would be now.

and without proper testing you would have thalidomide crisis all over again, animal testing would have prevented that drug from ever reaching the clinic [/Quote]
kimbers it WAS tested on animals when do you think we began doing this?
You agree with animal experiments fine but do not say things that are NOT true to support your argument … even the link you give you think we went straight from research to human trials ? You do not understand how the process works do you?
Have you heard of Google?
Google results
Some examples

Despite the clinical evidence to the contrary British health authorities such as the Medical Research Council maintain that the vast bulk of evidence from laboratory and animal tests is against thalidomide having any genetic effects. (2)

Another one

The original animal tests by Chemie Grünenthal did not show indications of this unexpected and serious side-effect. (10) Furthermore, in several European countries, including England and Sweden, the licensees of thalidomide carried out their own animal tests, independently from the German firm, and came to the same results as Chemie Grünenthal. (11) If the tests had predicted peripheral neuritis and if the firms acted upon the results in a responsible manner, the drug would not have been released in the first place and a major disaster would have been avoided.

It failed to detect the effect because it is difficult to prevent or even detect teratogenic effects- effects on a foetus because.

‘In pregnant animals, differences in the physiological structure, function and biochemistry of the placenta aggravate the usual differences in metabolism, excretion, distribution and absorption that exist between species and make reliable predictions impossible.’ (15)

Dr Robert Sharpe, former senior research chemist

Thalidomide was animal tested before release according to the references I can find – but not as thourghouly as it would be now.

Bingo TJ speaking crap again.

Thalidomide is good and work well, but only the R enantiomer. The S is responsible for all the problems.
Due to greed and capitalism, when the Thalidomide went into production, no separation of the enantiomers was done hence badly formed babies. That is the most know example in any chemistry classes. Please TJ check your sources…

Juan so it was tested on animals then only badly? is that your argument then?
Rude boy or TJ your turn off to do real work now

My argument is that testing was done on only one of the enatiomer. It’s the production that went wrong.

junkyard youre own results show that you have misread the data
Thalidomide did initially pass safety tests in animals but this was because the proper tests were not performed: thalidomide was not tested on pregnant animals. If a thorough battery of tests had been performed in animals, the teratogenic effects would have been caught

any drug for pregnant mothers would have to be tested on pregnant animals under mopern guidelines, we would have prevented the thalidomide babies being born

and yes i work in a cancer research institute and i think i understand it a little better than you

we would have prevented the thalidomide babies being born

not even sure… As during the testing the process of making the drug is different to the process during the production phase.

Juan – do you have to be so rude?

I fully acknowledged in my posts that I am no expert in this area. It would be nice if you read my posts before leaping to the attack. I was perhaps oversimplifying a complex debate and the references I found were contradictory. It would appear it was tested on animals but not pregnant ones prior to release

The debate is fine but the personal abuse that is starting to creep in has to stop.

Rudeboy, you are being watched closely after your ‘register’ comments earlier. It’s is NOT acceptable!

No, you’re probbly right. Bit too much.

Sorry.

As long as the same ‘rules’ apply to everyone.