And my point is proven.

sweet jesus, there's some high horses being ridden instead of bikes clearly.

Elfin et al, you don't get to make your own rules of the road. They already exist. No ifs, no buts, they're there. If you're not prepared to abide by them I suggest you piss off onto the private land that you clearly need to own and let the rest of us get on with it.

Then the roads will be safer and all parties will be more respectful and tolerant of each other.

Really? It's the likes of 'Elfin et al' that make the roads dangerous, because we refuse to obey the highway code, the rules of the road? What percentage of drivers commit speeding offences? Do you know anyone who drives a car and doesn't break the highway code by speeding? And yet it's a war on motorists, another tax on the motoring public, to even suggest lowering speed limits or putting more cameras up. Official road statistics clearly show that it is the motorists who are dangerous, it is the motorists who kill, maim and pollute, it is the motorists who clog our cities with their fat lazy metal coffins.

Elfinsafety – Fancy starting an urban guerilla anti car faction? Baader Meinhoff?

Presumably if there were a rule that it's fair game for drivers to run over cyclists with no penalty (which not too far from the truth TBH) then you'd be quite happy with that too?

Elfin et al, you don't get to make your own rules of the road

Eh? I don't make my own rules up, I simply choose to exercise my right to ignore those which I believe to be pointless and unnecessary in a particular situation. I take it you have never acted through independent thought, driven over the speed limit, etc etc…

I like to think I live in a reasonably liberal society, not a totalitarian dystopia where we are nothing but mindless drones.

Mansonsoul; sounds good.

Badger Meinhoff?
Dimly Lit Path?
ANC (Anti Naughty Cars)?
BNP (Be Nice to People)?
Hummus?
Taxiban?
Nice Shade Of Beige September?

manson, that's a really daft argument, surely you can see that? Just because someone else does it that makes it entirely legitimate for you? Because in your opinion they're worse (your guerilla sentiments are in fact quite disturbing) and you should be held as a paragon?

Sometimes I'm narked and if someone pees me off, I think they could do with a slap. But I don't do it. But some people do, and some stab people, and some shoot people and some murder people. They're a minority, but a little slap is so much more a minor offence that it should be inconsequential? Same concept, different actions…

Don't fall off that horse though, it's a long way for you to come down.

I hate all road users equally. Though I do hate cyclists more.

elfin, you can choose to ignore all the rules you want if you do it in your own private environment. As soon as you enter the road environment where others need to co-exist, and as you rightly say are driving vehicles that are bigger and *potentially* more dangerous than you, your actions can directly affect their actions.

It's simple – if you choose to break these rules then you really have zero argument against others that do, regardless of their mode of transport.

Now you're just being silly. Comparing running a red light to violence.

Always has to go to extremes this, doesn't it?

'All red light jumpers are scum of the Earth and cause Global Warming, War and Famine'.

Ooh! Ooh! Mansonsoul!!!

What about, our uniform could be….

…light red jumpers?????

I'm sooo excited!

the minute a cyclist is involved a blind eye is turned and they are clearly in the right

me and you have been reading different threads then. I've seen plenty of cyclist bashing on here by forumites who seemingly only ever stray on to the blacktop in their cars.

Careful elfin, motorists might start picking and choosing which rules they follow too….oh hang on a minute….

pk-ripper: my argument is this:

Yes, both motorists and cyclists break the law. However, when a motorist breaks the law (and even when they don't!) other people are regularly injured and killed. When a cyclist breaks the law, by and large he or she risks death or injury only to themselves.

So the incredible media (and forum) focus on the illegality of cyclists is rather wrong headed, especially considering the rampant illegality of motorists that we know causes far more death and injury, i.e speeding.

Elfin: great ideas, love it. Bicycle Liberation Army? I was thinking a bit less proto-fascist with the uniforms, more clandestine destruction of multi storey car parks?

I was thinking a bit less proto-fascist with the uniforms

Ooh I don't know…

Meet Brunnhilde and Hedwig, two of the 'Enforcement' officers:

I was thinking more:

Oh I see. More this sort of thing?

You don't live in Cumbria by any chance do you?

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cumbrian-residents-anger-at-vandal-attacks-on-cars-1.743478?referrerPath=news

In the office where I work the underground car park is filled with Porches, Lamborghinis, Range rovers and other ego-mobiles and I sometimes find it quite difficult to restrain my more base instincts 🙂

What about, our uniform could be….

…light red jumpers?????

This is inspired. 😀

Personally, I've adopted the practice of riding really quite slowly in town. It's safer, it's calmer and it means I don't steamed up about having to stop for lights. If you ride a cargo bike (or a dutch bike, or a Boris bike) in a stately fashion, a bit like an ocean liner riding a camel, and treat everyone with exaggerated Bertie Wooster courtesy, then the whole point just doesn't really arise. As soon as you pull on a helmet, some neon things and a rucksack with a respro hump on it and start charging around trying to get somewhere quickly then the lights become an irritation, and the perception of danger rises so it's easier to justify not stopping.

Back-street roots help hugely though. I've very few lights for the bulk of my route. 🙂

Exactly

Waterloo to Wapping and back. I cycle across redlights, pedestrian crossings, through "No Left" and "No Right" turns, across the face of stationary traffic, the lot.

I do it responsibly and carefully, always judging the timing/event interface properly so no-one gets the slightst bit startled let alone hurt.

If I didn't do this I wouldn't 1: get to work on time or 2: get to my evening train on time.

Am I bad, then?

You probably deserve to be locked up according to some people on here.

Rules are there to be obeyed without question, however stupid or unfit for purpose they may be 😆

Get the bus Woppit.

It's interesting to note that, since removing ALL signage and surface indicators/controls in Knightsbridge High Street, the accidents have DECREASED by 70%…

GlitterGary – Member
Get the bus Woppit.

Oh, O.K. That'll work… 🙄

It's good, you can read MBUK on the bus.

dazh, interesting that I've not said that. I believe if the rules aren't fit for purpose or stupid they wouldn't be there, or certainly wouldn't last long. And there are certainly plenty of lobby groups such as CTC and Sustrans that are trying to repeal the pointless ones or ones that don't serve cyclists interests.

Woppit, not bad, but again, I don't think you'd be in a position to criticise bad driving – again, that's a minority of drivers the same as bad cycling is a minority (but a seeming minority believing it's a moral right). I actually do a similar route probably, but adding in from Surbiton and ultimately in to Bank, and there are plenty of places where you could feasibly clear lights / junctions. But I would say you're reasoning is very self serving i.e. get to work on time (earlier train?), and get train home on time (leave earlier or later train?)

bad cycling

Is not something that I do.

self serving

Yes. Completely.

Earlier/later trains are not an option.

I sympathise, and I've no doubt you pose no real risk to the pedestrianary.

Would you agree however, that if the rules you choose to flout were abolished or flouted by all road users (for equally selfish reasons) the result would not be a situation in which one atheist on a Brompton was particularly safe or able to make particularly rapid progress? 🙂

Yes, an interesting irony.

Funny old life.

>I believe if the rules aren't fit for purpose or stupid they wouldn't be there, or certainly wouldn't last long

Really ?
There's been a couple of cases over the last handful of years where it's been intended (by the DSA?) to make using cyclepaths if not compulsory then advisory, and they've eventually backed down after the CTC/LCC etc have argued against it.

I'm not aware of anything that's been repealed (tho' that could, of course, be a what-have-the-romans-done-for-us statement 😉 )- I suspect to get anything that isn't fit for purpose or stupid *removed*, or the law/highway code altered once it's there is a lot harder.
Although I can't work out whether I think Boris Johnson is an idiot or not, credit to him for trialling, and implementing, the one-way street/two-way cyclepath stuff.

Yes, an interesting irony.

It's not really ironic, it just demonstrates your lack of a principled rationale for what you do. Other people obey rules designed for everyone's safety. You don't, because you're better than that and your trains are more important. You don't disapprove of the rule, because general adherence to it is needed to enable you to catch your train safely. You're just not going to abide by the same restrictions as the common herd. 🙂

Although I can't work out whether I think Boris Johnson is an idiot or not, credit to him for trialling, and implementing, the one-way street/two-way cyclepath stuff.

BoJo takes credit for an awful lot of stuff that was implemented/conceived during Red Ken's reign. The blue 'Cycle Super Highways' are in fact mostly existing cycle lanes painted blue. Bike hire schemes were being discussed and feasibility studies done long before BoJo came on the scene. He's just grabbed a lot of publicity because he happens to ride a bike. I dare say he'd claim he invented Congestion Charging if he thought he could get away with it.

>BoJo takes credit for an awful lot of stuff that was implemented/conceived during Red Ken's reign

Yeah, I'm aware he's done that in a few (?) cases (and AFAIC the blue paint thing's mainly window dressing – I haven't had reason to cycle into London for quite a while so can't really comment) – but AFAIA the one I mentioned hadn't come up before. I could, of course be wrong…

It's not really ironic,

I thought so.

You don't, because you're better than that

Don't see how. I'm taking advantage for selfish reasons.

your trains are more important

Not neccessarily "important", more a priority.

You don't disapprove of the rule, because general adherence to it is needed to enable you to catch your train safely. You're just not going to abide by the same restrictions as the common herd.

Precisely.

Elfinsafety – Member

Although I can't work out whether I think Boris Johnson is an idiot or not, credit to him for trialling, and implementing, the one-way street/two-way cyclepath stuff.

BoJo takes credit for an awful lot of stuff that was implemented/conceived during Red Ken's reign. The blue 'Cycle Super Highways' are in fact mostly existing cycle lanes painted blue. Bike hire schemes were being discussed and feasibility studies done long before BoJo came on the scene. He's just grabbed a lot of publicity because he happens to ride a bike. I dare say he'd claim he invented Congestion Charging if he thought he could get away with it.

Didn't you do that already, somewhere?

Yeah, you may be right. Everything seems to go round in circles on here…