Americans shooting themselves in the foot?

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  • Americans shooting themselves in the foot?
  • I see Trump is banning US companies from supplying goods or IP to Huawei and ZTE.

    As an industry outsider, aren’t they essentially shooting themselves in the feet as the IP for the critical components eg the CPU or screens in the case of smartphones, come from ARM (British) and Samsung?

    Qualcomm will just lose manufacturing orders.

    andrewh
    Member

    It’s fine, Americans like shooting things.

    Premier Icon bikebouy
    Subscriber

    I can’t decide on whether he’s Risk adverse or just a Risk.

    🤷‍♂️

    China are bad (1 million Muslims in re-education camps, dictator who has effectively become an Emperor) and are well on their way to taking over the world in a mercantile sense.

    This is the new political consensus in the USA and I think they’ve got it right. Enduring some economic pain to slow down something bad strikes me as a very good idea.

    Interesting segment, and subsequent discussion on it here:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0004xb3/this-week-09052019

    (Ignore the crap bits.)

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    This is the new political consensus in the USA and I think they’ve got it right. Enduring some economic pain to slow down something bad strikes me as a very good idea.

    still friends with saudi tho?

    tbh if you told trump about the muslim internment camp thing, he’d probably nick the idea for his campaign rallies

    footflaps
    Member

    Yes, right move but for all the wrong reasons.

    I wouldn’t trust Huawei as far as I can throw them….

    China’s policy for the last 20 years has been to catch up and ideally overtake Europe / USA at any cost and stealing as much IPR as possible, vis espionage, has been part of that strategy.

    Premier Icon BillOddie
    Subscriber

    As much as it pains me to say he’s probably right with the ZTE/Huawei thing, they are very dodgy.

    The fact that we’re even considering letting them anywhere near our telecoms network is staggeringly inept and frankly terrifying.

    Whacking 25% tariffs on Chinese goods/materials however is bloody daft.  Tariffs end up being paid by the consumer not the exporter.  It doesn’t take into account t the fact that most US manufacturing rely on cheap imported raw materials in order to manufacture their goods.

    avdave2
    Member

    China are bad (1 million Muslims in re-education camps, dictator who has effectively become an Emperor)

    So Trump is upset with them because they got there first?

    Nico
    Member

    ARM (British)

    Owned by the Japanese company Softbank

    Premier Icon dissonance
    Subscriber

    aren’t they essentially shooting themselves

    For certain components its very hard not to use USA products hence why ZTE pretty much collapsed last year. It would have a negative impact on US businesses but I doubt that noticable since it would be matched by growth in other businesses to take over from ZTE.
    Of course in the medium/long term the Chinese companies would be trying to bin off that reliance.

    Nico
    Member

    I wouldn’t trust Huawei as far as I can throw them….

    Any Chinese company has, by law, to do whatever the Chinese government asks of them (according to the bloke on Radio 4 today), but I wonder if GCHQ asked a British telecoms company that had the capability to do something nefarious in order to scupper some jihadist organisation, would they do it? I’d have thought so.

    Premier Icon ffej
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    The fact that we’re even considering letting them anywhere near our telecoms network is staggeringly inept and frankly terrifying

    They already do supply equipment for our mobile phone network. That horse bolted the stables some time ago.

    Jeff

    Premier Icon FuzzyWuzzy
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    I’m another in the camp I think Trump’s a dick and the general trade war is a mistake but coming down hard on the Chinese regarding IT stuff is very valid. The US/NATO and Chinese are already effectively conducting a cyberwar and the likelihood is both are already deeply in each other’s critical systems so to allow a Chinese company with a dubious background to be involved with core systems would just be a stupid risk to take.

    If the Chinese & Russia ban US & UK firms from their core tech infrastructure that’s fine (they already effectively do anyway)

    I wonder if GCHQ asked a British telecoms company that had the capability to do something nefarious in order to scupper some jihadist organisation, would they do it? I’d have thought so.

    Yes, they would. After a judicial process in UK courts. No such protection in China.

    Whacking 25% tariffs on Chinese goods/materials however is bloody daft. Tariffs end up being paid by the consumer not the exporter. It doesn’t take into account t the fact that most US manufacturing rely on cheap imported raw materials in order to manufacture their goods.

    I was unsure about this at the start, but the Democrats seem to have changed their minds and are in favour and then I hear this morning that a firm I deal with are moving their high tech manufacturing out of China within two months. That’s skills and revenue lost to China and going somewhere a bit more democratic and far less likely to kick the arse of the rest of the world over the next 50 years.

    If China is less competitive selling to the USA that’s more opportunity for the rest of the world which is a good thing.

    That’s skills and revenue lost to China and going somewhere a bit more democratic and far less likely to kick the arse of the rest of the world over the next 50 years.

    Very few people live in proper democracies, why should wealth go to those that only have systems of governments like ours? You are also likely going to cut the west off from the rest of the developing world, who will buy Chinese.

    The above article raises a good point, why stop with China – the US is as much as a threat to others as China is.

    Let’s not forget that America does and has always bullied its competitors into the ground. They sailed gunboats into Japan to open up that market, they invaded the Phillipines to springboard into Asia and gain trade dominance, they embargoed Japan because they wanted to have dominant access to China and helped set the scene for the Pacific war, they turned Korea and Vietnam into wastelands because again – they couldn’t abide Asia having their own say in their future. They are now doing the same that they did to Japan with China – and acting increasingly belligerent towards Iran.

    The Chinese have nothing on the Americans for threatening others security. Isolating China and encircling it is only going to give us the same outcome that the embargoing ofJapan did in the 1930s – they will lash out – and if they are clever enough not to make the same mistakes that Japan did with the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere – they might not lose.

    I find it odd that GCHQ seem to be okay with the governments position and that we have a British General speaking out against the Americans on Iran. It’s almost as if it is all just political….

    I guess part of the reason for why we are where we are now is that whilst the west might have forgotten colonialism – Asia hasn’t, especially China. The country has a collective national memory like that of an elephant. Their aggressive economic policies and IP theft are driven by the memory of how we treated them, they feel the rules were set by us a long time ago – not in 2001 when China ascended to the WTO.

    The aim has always been to boot the last vestiges of western imperialism and influence well beyond the first island chain and into the middle of the Pacific.

    Fair play really.

    If the goal on the part of the US was to counter a politically dangerous China….would this be the case?

    China can’t be defeated. It’s dangerous to provoke and too unscrupulous to appease. But it can be countered, undermined, and enticed — a type of containment with off-ramps.

    The Trans-Pacific Partnership, the free-trade deal negotiated by the Obama administration, might have served as a core piece of the strategy by deepening U.S. economic ties across the region. But Trump withdrew from it in his first week of office.

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    Deepening military cooperation with our allies in Asia should serve as another piece of the strategy. But Trump ended large joint exercises with South Korea, has thrown shade on military ties with Japan and has yet to make major arms sales to Taiwan.

    Denouncing China’s human-rights abuses and championing civil rights and religious liberty would counter Xi’s efforts to entrench a cult-of-personality regime. But Trump has been silent on the subject, and his administration shelved sanctions intended to punish Chinese officials for their mass incarceration of Chinese Muslims.

    To tie in my point about what happened when Japan was embargoed…..

    China is now an adversary of the United States. A wise U.S. policy should treat it as one. But it should also do everything possible to keep it from becoming an enemy. Generous accommodations in trade negotiations would help: The last thing the U.S. or the world needs is a wrecked Chinese economy or a humiliated Chinese public.

    Premier Icon cookeaa
    Subscriber

    Surely there’s at least a little bit of protectionism wrapped up in this, if Huawei are effectively cut out of a chunk of the US comm’s market there’s a void for another (US) company to fill? And probably some government funding/tax breaks if they have to develop their own IP or buy it in…

    Meanwhile we’re potentially handing chunks of our critical future infrastructure over to a Chinese firm, spending tax revenues so GCHQ can man mark Huawei’s people, and the profits from any investment head out of the UK too…

    It might be a master stroke, or a disaster on Trumps part. But we’ll probably not know for a few years…

    Surely there’s at least a little bit of protectionism wrapped up in this,

    I suspect a massive amount. The question is as simple as who do we want to suck up to, the USA or China? It’s a no brainer. We sell more than we buy to the USA. USA is a civilised liberal democracy. China is a dictatorship that runs concentration camps for Muslims! …and we buy more from them than we sell by a massive margin.

    @raybanwomble I just don’t buy the “USA are as bad as China” argument. They’re not. People can demonstrate against the president in the USA. People can vote against him every 4 years. People can be 100pc sure Trump will be gone either next year or in another 5 years and he’ll be replaced by a democratically elected leader. China? Russia?

    chewkw
    Member

    “Americans shooting themselves in the foot?”

    Not necessarily as China’s expansion is very fast so some sort of barriers would be good.

    To me the trade war is inevitable regardless as China is establishing himself as the alternative to the world system, although China is not there yet but eventually they will.

    Oh ya big projects in China will always have govt involvement just like any other big projects in other part of the world. Spying from all parties etc … all normal so relax.

    Premier Icon slowoldman
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    Is anyone watching “Years and Years”?

    chewkw
    Member

    Is anyone watching “Years and Years”?

    Will give it a look when I have time.

    I guess part of the reason for why we are where we are now is that whilst the west might have forgotten colonialism – Asia hasn’t, especially China. The country has a collective national memory like that of an elephant. Their aggressive economic policies and IP theft are driven by the memory of how we treated them, they feel the rules were set by us a long time ago – not in 2001 when China ascended to the WTO.

    No. The only papillae beating the British up about our colonial past our the British. The rest of the world realise that most countries have had a colonial past and we’re just as blood thirsty. No country is squeaky clean and the deaths caused under British colonial exploits pales into insignificance next to the hundreds of millions of people slaughtered underneath Mai. Here is no deadlier killing machine than a socialist dictator.

    China is trying to become the new super power and doing. What is necessary to achieve that. The western nations have learned the lessons of the past but China are making all the same errors so we in the west are right to stand upto them, there is no hypocrisy there, just application of lessons learned. The global economy can only work to the benefit of people if it is left to its own devices as much as possible without government or political interventions, so where those political interventions are taking place action must be taken. Like any system, the global economy needs to be actively maintained or we all lose.

    @raybanwomble I just don’t buy the “USA are as bad as China” argument. They’re not. People can demonstrate against the president in the USA. People can vote against him every 4 years. People can be 100pc sure Trump will be gone either next year or in another 5 years and he’ll be replaced by a democratically elected leader. China? Russia?

    Only it your idea of good or bad is whether a country is a democracy or not. By other measures, the US is as bad I not worse than China.

    No. The only papillae beating the British up about our colonial past our the British

    Disagree profoundly. Based on experience and reading sound the topic. Colonialism is still very much a hot topic in East Asia.

    https://www.salzburgglobal.org/news/latest-news/article/kevin-rudd-chinas-long-memory-of-european-imperialism.html

    Given this sorry history of Western imperialism in China, the question for Europe and the wider West as a whole is that China today looks at the post-1945 global order. The basic question from Beijing is this: Why is it that a Western-made order is somehow inherently legitimate?

    https://m.spiegel.de/international/world/the-china-question-time-for-a-new-approach-to-beijing-a-1264948.html

    “The Chinese want to beat us because there’s a long historical memory,” one of Germany’s leading business experts on China, BASF CEO Martin Brudermüller, recently said, adding that this explains “the drive and ambition of the Chinese.” It is a worldview that one must be familiar with when it comes to dealing with the country.

    Only it your idea of good or bad is whether a country is a democracy or not. By other measures, the US is as bad I not worse than China.

    Here’s enough measures to keep you busy all day:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China

    I’d be interested in hearing your top 5 measures by which you regard the Chinese system as better than the USA’s.

    I’d be interested in hearing your top 5 measures by which you regard the Chinese system as better than the USA’s

    I don’t, I just don’t believe in USA = good, China = bad. Whilst China’s Confucian culture might not value democracy like the west does, at least they don’t have the track record of apocalyptic wars that the USA has. Democracy is only inherently good if the culture of those who vote in that democracy are inherently peaceful. Americans regularly vote for or support parties that kill people from other countries just because because their world outlook disagrees with the American public or they fancy having dominant market access.

    The west is going to have to get used to living in a world where it is not dominant and one that does not see it’s world view on democracy and human rights as legitimate because of its past and ongoing actions.

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