Ernie…………… If you think that makes me a neo-conservative war-mongering knob, then I give up.

I have no idea what your views on America's foreign adventures are. Although you clearly prefer to see your taxes go to the military rather than health care……I was actually toying with the idea of asking you that question next.

But you are very obviously, an American Conservative. And I genuinely find that interesting – because you are so utterly different to British Conservatives.

And my constant references to the "American Right" are simply because it shouldn't forgotten that you pair of clowns, don't speak for all Americans……….I watch the Daily Show with Jon Stewart. So I know how strongly so many Americans oppose you. In fact the majority of Americans it would appear, judging by the last Presidential election result.

Have a nice day.

TandemJeremy – Member

chewk – are you saying you don't subscribe to the "free at the point of demand" healthcare of the UK as a right? I see that as my right as a Briton

If it is there so be it but if it is not there then why should one claim it to be their rights?

Put it this way consider the period of time prior to NHS. Did no NHS wipe out the population? No. There might be sickness and death but it is the same all over.

However, I will help if I can but I cannot tell others to help.

Yes, you see that as your right because of NHS.
🙄

The lies and misinformation regarding our 'socialized' system have not only come from the American Right, but from our very own Conservative wingnuts with nothing but their political careers in mind:

Dan Hannan's NHS lies

Compassionate Conservatism is a definite oxymoron.

Individual can still be compassionate towards others but when it comes to the masses things will turn ugly, especially when one that dictates the right or wrong to the masses.

🙄

Why the eye rolling?

Sorry, bit late on all this, just had a read through and i'm none the wiser, is that theyEye guy a troll?

theyEye – Member

Having your employer provide you with health insurance isn't the optimal situation, agreed. Everyone should have their portable plan. And if they want a bigger risk pool, hook up with their friends.

Hang on, isn't he suggesting that we hook up with friends, get a joint policy?

Well that is a smaller risk isn't it? And what you are in fact advocating is a system whereby people put their cash into a pool, if you get ill your covered?!? Sounds like the UK system to me.

What you fail to understand theyEye is that if you live in a society you pay for others regardless, you pay for others to be imprisoned if they commit crimes so that you can venture outside without being a little bit murdered, you pay for the roads you use and the ones you don't…… basically you are paying for loads of stuff you may never use but other people do.

What you want is THE RIGHT to not pay for the improved health of the most vulnerable people in society, basically that's not really on is it mate.

Life is a gamble, do you know your not going to get cancer, your wife, your kids? I know i don't but i'm happy that i live somewhere that won't bankrupt my wife if i have a long drawn out disease and inadequate insurance to pay for my treatment.

Don't even get me started on your 'anyone can earn more money' BS, who is going to teach your kids, police your streets, clean your f'in hospitals, and an average house costs 8 times their wages, how the hell would they afford the insurance. Think about it, if they paid these people more, your taxes would increase, your insurance would go up, you'd be just as bad off.

It's the i'm alright Jack attitude that get's me. I'm assuming your either a troll or an idiot. I'm going for idiot.

Morning all. Right:

Everyone has marketable skills

Yes but for many skills supply outstrips demand. Then what?

I don't really see why, in a market, there HAVE to be losers.

Because there will always be some better at making money than others, and by definition those makign money have to take it from someone else (mostly).

If your sister's job isn't giving her what she wants, she should change it. But maybe her priorities are different. Perhaps she likes the place she works, the people, the location, the job, etc. more than she likes having health insurance. And it's her choice

Now, see, I've actually talked to her, rather than just conjecturing about the subject. And believe it or not, she does actually WANT a better paid job (as does just about everyone, obviously). It's just that she has the best job she can currently get. So why don't you ask her why she doesn't earn more?

I find it absolutely incredible that anyone could possibly believe that someone earning £10k a year in a shop actually chooses that salary rather than £50k a year as say an IT professional. Have yuo actually spoken to another human being ever? Let me tell you something. I make good money, but I would rather earn more. I can't, because I'm not qualified or experienced in the areas that pay well. That kind of blows your theory out of the water does it not?

There is no way that being forced to work harder for my neighbours health insurance is in any way acceptable or fair

The hell it's not. We all live together in society, and we all need to help each other. Otherwise the world is a very bleak place indeed. And people won't help people they don't know about unless you make it law. This I believe is fundamentally right. Love thy neighbour and all that.

Are you saying that if you became unemployed and lost all your savings, that you WOULD NOT seek social security money? That you would have you and your family roaming the streets begging?

I don't have a f*ck you attitude.

Your posts have defined the very essence of f*ckyouishness, which is why I am upset, since you are basically saying f*ck you to everyone, including me. You even said that a few months of a dying woman's life is more important than mine, just because you happen to know her and you don't know me. That is unfathomable.

I think we'd all be okay.

Hahaha! Like in the good old days, before social security and the Labour movement? Thigns were great back then, you were born, you worked all hours for not enough food to live on and you died really early.. oh how we were all fine then.

The argument, in essence, is not about being a d*ck, or being nice

It IS! You are judged by your deeds, of course you are. If you don't want to help others (even ones you don't know) then you are by definition not being nice!

I work like hell for my money, and I should be able to do with it as I please. If I'm a saint, and that something is buying homeless people food, great. If I'm an ass, and it's coke and hookers, that should be my choice.

Mmm, except some of it's not yours. You have a legal, social and moral obligation to pay taxes (as outlined above) so that money was never yours to begin with. In this country at least, you never see it, it disappears from your paycheque before you get it, so why worry about it? If they didn't print those lines on your payslip you'd never know it even existed! People who moan about tax are just seeing some numbers on a piece of paper and getting greedy. Well here you are: £999,999! Wow! What a lot of money! Someone should give that to me!

we continually see people saying they can't afford insurance, or their house payment or their car payment, but they sure can afford $200 sneakers, high-dollar clothes, fancy car, plasma TV, drugs, etc

That is a frickin lame assed excuse to avoid any social responsibility. Of course there are a few people like that, but by trotting that old line out every time someone taxes you you are ignoring the majority of people who are hard working but still disadvantaged and need help.

I believe that anyone can have the cash if they really wanted to

My god.. tell you what.. why don't you go into Tescos and speak to a shelf stacker. Tell them that they only want to make minimum wage and don't want to earn any more – see how many incredulous stares you get.

As above – supply outstrips demand – think about it.

What an eye opener – or rather a rather depressing confirmation of my own shamefully generalised opinion of the American psyche.

Utterly shocking, what a depraved society you come from.

For many years I have been utterly confused by our so called "special relationship" touted by politicians and the media – yet the same pathetic media (and elements across the UK political spectrum) take delight in lambasting and lampooning our european neighbours.

Well I feel that we have far more in common, especially in terms of cultural and humanitarian values, with Europe than we do with the US.

the American psyche

Whoah there.. let's just get one thing straight: There is no 'American psyche'. America is more culturally more diverse than just about any country on earth. So whilst there are plenty of people with these right wing attitudes, there are also a great many decent compassionate altruistic folk too. And just about every point in between.

You really cannot generalise at all. It'd be like comparing Scandinavians with say Serbs. Totally different world.

by definition those makign money have to take it from someone else

That's not true. It's not a zero sum game.

The very fact that the Americans elected Obama on the promise of health care reform pretty much tells me that the views of theyEye et al aren't representative
It's just that they seem to shout the loudest

That's why I said mostly. If you are charging someone for a service you are taking their money.

If you are taking a highly paid job you are stopping someone else from taking it.

You cannot manufacture an unlimited supply of highly paid jobs – if you did, the ensuing inflation would put you right back where you started.

TheyEye needs to have a think about economics before settling on his rosy world view.

Molgrips – if you supply a service to someone and they pay you for it they presumably paid because it was useful to them. Let's suppose it saved them a lot of time, which they then used more productively. Everyone ends up better off.

Yes but if it's food, or heating, or shelter, then all you are is alive, which is exactly where you started. So you've 'gained' nothing (apart from another day of life) but paid out all the same. However the person charging you has made a profit.

But this is by the by, is it not? Simply because there are fewer highly paid jobs than lower paid ones (as the free market dictates, and is really necessary) then there will always be losers.

On the subject of American ideology: the country is so massively irreconcilably polarised (and it's getting worse) that it seems to me that secession for some parts of the country is the only way out. Not that it'll happen, but really you've got different groups of people trying to pull the govt in wildly different directions, and consequently the govt has to sit in the middle which is a place no-one wants it to be.

Whoah there.. let's just get one thing straight: There is no 'American psyche'. America is more culturally more diverse than just about any country on earth. So whilst there are plenty of people with these right wing attitudes, there are also a great many decent compassionate altruistic folk too. And just about every point in between.

You really cannot generalise at all. It'd be like comparing Scandinavians with say Serbs. Totally different world.

I'm very well aware of that – hence the "shamefully generalised" caveat in my opening line.

And I am also aware that political opinion is heavily polarised, with the balance between the religious right / various Republican flavours and Democrat / more "liberal" outlook varying either side, but close to the 50:50 amrk.

Michael Moore's "Stupid White Men" give a good (although biased to his own perception) expose of the first Bush election "win" and how finally balanced but politically bitterly divided the voting population was…

Unfortunately though, a Nation's external "image" can be fixed around particularly vocal, influential or high profile groups. (It always depresses / frustrates me how "generalised" US views of the UK seem to centre on a "4 weddings" type stereotype.

Despite his assersion earlier in the thread the more I read the more I think that theyEye's view is the pessimistic one. Everyone out for themselves and if something goes wrong you're on your own, not very hopeful is it?

And I agree it is, as ever, the objectors who shout the loudest, I guess the mid-terms will be the best indicator of the popularity of this bill.

Being in a relationship with one on each side of the pond I can quite happily conclude that there are many stereotypes but they apply to each country.

"Unfortunately though, a Nation's external "image" can be fixed around particularly vocal, influential or high profile groups."

And unfortunately for America we can watch Glenn Beck on Faux News over here. There isn't a facepalm emoticon big enough for that programme.

Yes but you do have Jon Stewart to bring the balance!

let's just get one thing straight: There is no 'American psyche'. America is more culturally more diverse than just about any country on earth.

But, it seems to be the ethos (and those that subscribe to it)espoused by theyEye that comes to the top of the pack – unbridled market economics

But, it seems to be the ethos (and those that subscribe to it)espoused by theyEye that comes to the top of the pack

Not quite.. they still have social security and government intervention in things.. they also have medicare.. so there are still some moderating influences left 🙂

America is more culturally more diverse than just about any country on earth.

Was that posted by someone trying to see who could detect irony?

Was that posted by someone trying to see who could detect irony?

In what way?

Yes but if it's food, or heating, or shelter, then all you are is alive, which is exactly where you started. So you've 'gained' nothing (apart from another day of life) but paid out all the same. However the person charging you has made a profit.

Let's suppose you get your heating from British Gas because you don't fancy spending all day collecting wood or trying to dig up coal. You then can instead spend the day going to work and getting paid more than enough money to pay your gas bill, with enough left over to buy some other things. So actually you've gained a lot.

Anyway, slightly OT.

Back on track, I wonder if all the fuss about the health care bill just be yesterday's news after a while and just be as normal and accepted in the US as Medicare is. If so then Obama will have achieved something, no matter what else happens.

I wonder if all the fuss about the health care bill just be yesterday's news after a while and just be as normal and accepted in the US as Medicare is

Agreed. The healthcare reform thing is just a vehicle for Republican propaganda; they are whipping people up into a frenzy for their own political ends I feel.

Looks like its still as per my in depth analysis on Page 1? 😉

So its basically because they are a bunch of knobbers then?

There you go, an incisive insight into the deeper issues draws yet another argumentative thread to a peaceful conclusion… 😉

That's my aim in life 🙂

Wow. What an eye-opening thread!

Is this indicative of the kind of thing I'm likely to find on STW? 😯

This'll get folk foaming at the mouth over their Daily Mails.

You know the person at the health insurance company that decides if they're going to pay for or deny your treatment.

That's me. 😛

Is this indicative of the kind of thing I'm likely to find on STW?

Periodically, yes 🙂

BB – you in the American system?

BB – you in the American system?

Yes

Where d'you live, out of interest?

Glasgow 😆

So what's the deal?