• This topic has 38 replies, 22 voices, and was last updated 1 year ago by MrGrim.
Viewing 39 posts - 1 through 39 (of 39 total)
  • Am I being unreasonable: house buying (Scotland)
  • tomd
    Full Member

    Trying to buy a house in Scotland. Our seller’s circumstances seem to be older parents selling up to buy larger house with grown up child & family.

    They want a condition in the contract that it’s only valid if their child also agrees missives to sell their house. i.e. it seems they need to proceeds from both the house we’re trying to buy and their child’s house to get the bigger house. This wasn’t made clear before offer (estate agents lie, who knew?).

    So we’d exchange missives, agree an entry date but at any time if their child’s sale falls through OR they decide to pull out of that sale we’d be stuffed. We’re exposed to two chains as well. It’s sort of like a dreadful combination of the English system and Scottish system except they get the upside of both and us the downsides. They’ve also pushed the entry date back quite far already which is another issue.

    I’m going to sleep on it but does this seem reasonable or normal as a condition? My thought is just to go back and offer to sign missives now with that condition removed but accept the later entry date. If they won’t do that then I’m think just to wait and see what happens but not sign up to it.

    Losing the sale is less than ideal for us, but signing up to an unknown timeline where they hold all the cards is equally unappealing.

    Pieface
    Full Member

    You never know what may come up in the meantime too.

    oldtennisshoes
    Full Member

    Difficult, but it depends very much on desirability of the hoose and how likely other folk are to want to buy it if you pull out. It’s a judgement call. BUT I’d be suggesting to your solicitors that the offer is time limited and the sellers really need to commit.

    monksie
    Free Member

    I’ve never bought or sold in Scotland but I’d be backing right out of the whole process very quickly.
    Offer. Survey. Confirm date of exchange. Propose and agree potential completion date. Exchange, Complete. I’ve moved four times in England. As soon as the above process begins to deviate, we advised we would and indeed on one occasion did remove ourselves from the sale/purchase.
    Buying and selling with a mortgage is far too stressful as it is. There is no way I would agree to any of that stuff they’re stipulating. What a nightmare

    tjagain
    Full Member

    No way would I be agreeing to that. Far too many people and chains involved thus far too many points of failure.

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    tomd
    Full Member

    Difficult, but it depends very much on desirability of the hoose and how likely other folk are to want to buy it if you pull out. It’s a judgement call. BUT I’d be suggesting to your solicitors that the offer is time limited and they need to commit.

    I would say in current market it’s quite desirable, but obviously other buyers would not be aware of the complex chain. The would probably get a buyer but at a lower price.

    I’m really intrigued if they’ve inserted the reverse clause on their child’s house sale – so exchanging those missives is contingent on us signing up for the parent’s house. I can see the buyer of their child’s house doing a runner if that’s the case.

    I’ve never bought or sold in Scotland but I’d be backing right out of the whole process very quickly.

    Yes I’m on the edge of doing that. Just has ballache written all over it but equally on the off chance it works out we could get quite a nice house quicker than starting from scratch again!

    tomd
    Full Member

    No way would I be agreeing to that. Far too many people and chains involved thus far too many points of failure.

    Thanks – that was my feeling. It’s just a bit mental isn’t it?

    tjagain
    Full Member

    It will be interesting to see what the sellers solicitor says to you if you say – “I will not accept that and will pull out but will accept a later date”. I suspect they will agree rather than loose the sale.

    franksinatra
    Full Member

    No way, that is totally unreasonable to ask you to be beholden to people outside of your chain selling. That needs ot be their risk, not yours.

    If you have had an offer accepted then that gives you more legal protection than you might get under the English system, Scottish process tends to be a bit more robust to protect buyers.

    Are you using an English or Scottish solicitor? It makes sense to use someone who knows the Scottish systems and push them for decent advice.

    oldtennisshoes
    Full Member

    People rave about the Scottish house buying system being so much better than in England.
    It’s definitely loaded towards the seller and a pain in the hoop in my multiple experiences!

    tomd
    Full Member

    Are you using an English or Scottish solicitor? It makes sense to use someone who knows the Scottish systems and push them for decent advic

    Scottish. Also have an English one as selling our house in England. I get the joys of BOTH systems at once!

    People rave about the Scottish house buying system being so much better than in England.
    It’s definitely loaded towards the seller and a pain in the hoop in my multiple experiences!

    They’re both shit and each can be negatively impacted by dishonest, lazy or incompetent actions by anyone involved.

    franksinatra
    Full Member

    It’s definitely loaded towards the seller and a pain in the hoop in my multiple experiences!

    The offer over (blind auction) system is daft but I have bought four houses and sold three and it has always been seamless. Sold fixed price every time though.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    The key thing with the scottish system is a bit of protection against gazumping in that it ( IIRC) becomes legally binding earlier in the process

    globalti
    Free Member

    Don’t do it. There are too many uncertainties. Really, do not. So much can come catastrophically unravelled,

    On moving to Scotland, have you lived here during a Scottish winter? Wouldn’t it be a good idea to rent a holiday cottage for a week at the end of February just as a taster?

    matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    If you have other options for a house sale/purchase, now is the time to fully explore them.

    matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    They’re both shit and each can be negatively impacted by dishonest, lazy or incompetent actions by anyone involved.

    Correct.

    Our experience is that the Scottish system is weakly applied and even Scottish estate agents didn’t actually understand some of the nuance.

    tomd
    Full Member

    The key thing with the scottish system is a bit of protection against gazumping in that it ( IIRC) becomes legally binding earlier in the process

    That’s the theory TJ, but folk just drag out signing the missives to get round it. Or as our seller is trying to do insert qualifications that allow you to back out.

    On moving to Scotland, have you lived here during a Scottish winter?

    Sadly yes. This very much isn’t a lifestyle move.

    csb
    Full Member

    Given they could break the contract anyway, isn’t all they’re getting from this is an easement of the penalties that them breaking the contract would incur?

    TheFlyingOx
    Full Member

    I wouldn’t necessarily back out, but it would be a hard no on that kids house sale condition. Let them take it or leave it.

    poly
    Free Member

    Presumably you have a scottish solicitor acting for you. In no way is it normal (unless its a very recent trend) for the seller to have an option to back out if their new house is not ready/available/built/completed. Thats the sellers problem and they’ll have to rent a holiday home or house depending on the duration of the delay. Your solicitor should be telling you they are taking the prevenrbial.

    mashr
    Full Member

    I’d be disappointed that my solicitor hadn’t already told them to behave before I even found out about it

    tomd
    Full Member

    I’d be disappointed that my solicitor hadn’t already told them to behave before I even found out about it

    That would require my solicitor to have actually read the letter and not sat on it for 10 days and done sweet FA with it before forwarding it to me. Like many batshit clauses in things it was at the end of the list (cut and paste standard list, add oddballs at the end) and I imagine his attention had wandered by that point.

    Appreciate the point of view though, I’ll definitely be taking a no nonsense approach to it.

    NZCol
    Free Member

    As mashr says i’d be asking questions.
    You could accept but on a time limited basis otherwise it could be never ending and ultimately you are in a chain if you accept.

    Nobeerinthefridge
    Free Member

    It will be interesting to see what the sellers solicitor says to you if you say – “I will not accept that and will pull out but will accept a later date”. I suspect they will agree rather than loose the sale.

    TJ is spot on, put the ball in their court. Best of luck Tom, it’s shite moving at the best of times.

    Whereabouts you coming back to?.

    chakaping
    Free Member

    Yep, you tell them exactly where they can insert that clause.

    And is it too late to change to a better solicitor?

    thegreatape
    Free Member

    The offer over (blind auction) system is daft

    Not always. If I was selling my house it would be offers over, but I know that every other house in my village in the same price range has been snapped up within days, and most have had multiple offers.

    convert
    Full Member

    I can see why they might want that but I think the parents need to be told to put the big boy pants on (my phrase of the week) and accept the possibility they might be renting for a week or two to get it all squared away.

    A pushed back date with the option to move it forward their end if it helps align with the other sale would be as far as I’d go I think. Or a counter clause that if the sale collapsed because of an issue on their kid’s end they would be responsible for all your costs plus an inconvenience few grand too.

    Current buying my mother’s house from her in Scotland. I have been doing so for 11 months. Sleepy highland solicitors (hers) with no email address and a few niggles with the deeds and a spot of covid all mitigating factors. But 11 months! I’ve lived in the sodding thing for 5 months without owning it.

    duncancallum
    Full Member

    Itd depend on how much I wanted that house. I’m known odd situation with the one I’m after too.

    I’m planning on renting when I’m moving if the one I want falls through so it’s easier

    iainc
    Full Member

    Interesting that you are coming back Tom, what area you heading for ?

    RichPenny
    Free Member

    It’s a “GTFO” from me Tom. Any reason they can’t sell the house then rent somewhere if the child’s house doesn’t line up? The whole thing sounds EXACTLY like what it is. They’re faced with the logistical challenge of having to align two house moves precisely. This is basically impossible, so rather than own the problem themselves by moving temporarily, then onwards to the new place, they’ve decided to offload the drama to everyone else in the chains.

    tomd
    Full Member

    Any reason they can’t sell the house then rent somewhere if the child’s house doesn’t line up?

    Only vaguely sensible reason might be that the parents are in a high risk group for Cv19 age wise so they could be seeking to minimising exposure through temporary accommodation etc. But then they’re aiming to move in with a working age family and kids at school so…


    @Nobeerinthefridge
    & @Ianc hopefully somewhere close-ish to Stirling but at the moment a caravan in the work carpark looking most likely!

    I’m going to wait a day or two and go back and offer to sign missives with clause removed, put the ball in their court as suggested above.

    Nobeerinthefridge
    Free Member

    Good stuff Tom, best of luck, I’m sure it’ll all work out in the end.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    please do update us on this tomd.

    IA
    Full Member

    Random alternative suggestion, tell them you’ll keep the clause in but the price drops 10k (or whatever) as the price of you taking their risk.

    NZCol
    Free Member

    Your solicitor should be telling them to go and do one. Wo while yo urack up costs agreeing missives on the primary sellers property it hinges on a secondary contract of sale. IF for example there is an issue with the title or deeds (maybe they did some renovations and didn;t get it signed off – more common than you think) then the delay impacts on the completion of your contract. I’m not even sure they could complete the missives until that was dealt with on the secondary property. So in summary, no. Sounds financial to me i.e. we need both properties sold to fund the new one and we will hinge the sale of the primary on that happening. Again, no.

    tomd
    Full Member

    Thanks IA and NZCol.

    I’ve had it up to my eyeballs with both English and Scottish solicitors. Our English sale exchanges contracts today (been pushed back twice already). Got an email from solicitor saying that the chain is not ready to exchange, can you confirm you’re OK with date X?

    Phoned them up telling them to tell the buyers to take a running **** to themselves. Solicitor was a bit taken aback before they realised they had mistyped “not” instead of “now” and the date was actually the entry date.

    Every letter from our Scottish solicitor has incorrect details as well.

    The only positive is that it’s keeping these **** busy away from occupations where they would kill people with their ineptitude.

    tomd
    Full Member

    The Dundee thread reminded me to update this.

    The seller relented in the end and missives agreed and our English sale finally completed. Getting the house in January so will become a resident of Tillicoultry. We really wanted somewhere with hills / trails on the doorstep and it’s definitely got that. The dry ski slope and furniture shop are just the icing on the cake.

    Been keeping an eye on what’s come up for sale since and it’s been very quiet so very happy to have got this sorted out as otherwise would be up shits creek.

    13thfloormonk
    Full Member

    Glad to hear it worked out!

    We’re selling with a view to moving to Stirling area also.

    Buyers have more or less bitten our hands off so now we’re in the 8-10 week ‘waiting for banks and lawyers to get their respective fingers out’ window 🙄

    We’re also a bit worried about how quiet market has become but I think this is the norm at this time of year anyway…

    MrGrim
    Full Member

    Great to hear it worked out and welcome! I’m a few miles up the road. Loads of great biking on the doorstep. You can even get your haircut in the back of a van at the outlet

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