Recently went to a friends for dinner and while discussing the whole vegan thing they mentioned that they have gone 100% clean (no processed foods) and 100% organic.

Now, I’ll admit that I do buy some organic food, usually if it’s reduced, but theres no way I could afford for every food item in my house to have that wee green leaf.

Their motivation is a diet they have read up on to help people with MS. They’ve admitted it’s hard to tell if theres any benefits but wont be stopping.

Has anyone on here done it? Noticed any difference? Also, how the hell do you afford it?

I don’t do all organic. But I would.if it were available and affordable, largely because it’s good for the soil and the environment. Also animal welfare.

Find a decent local veg box scheme. And bulk buy dried grains, beans etc. Can be quite reasonably priced.

Organic meat is expensive, so eat less/none of it.

Junk food/biscuits/processed “treats” etc can actually be quite expensive esp. takeaways so you can definitely save money if you’re not buying those.

Supermarket own-brand grains/pulses etc are the same price or cheaper than branded non-organic ones so no huge outlay there. Organic veg not massively more expensive especially if you stretch the definition to stuff from local farms/farmers markets etc that’s grown without pesticides but doesn’t actually have the (very expensive) organic certification. Yes organic meat is a lot more but you can cut down on meat intake!

Would require a lot of discipline but maybe doesn’t have to be particularly expensive.

As above, IIRC a lot of Italian (processed) food is organic now by default as its mandatory for school dinners. If a whole country can do it!

Other than making people believe they are getting a healthier better tasting product that is kinder for the environment what exactly are the proven benefits and is organic farming truly sustainable as a method of feeding the masses on a global scale?

Their motivation is a diet they have read up on to help people with MS.

Then they’d save a lot of money by not believing everything they read on the Internet. There are precisely zero high-quality studies on the interaction between MS and diet (but a metric ****ton of shit ones).

I’m not saying that eating organic isn’t a bad thing, rather that if that’s their only reason then they’re just wasting their money.

Does your friend have MS?

budgierider – organic is certainly better tasting and better for the environment ( perhaps that is arguable as yield per area can be lower)

cougar – is the vit d link with MS not proven? mind you organic will not increase vit d levels

organic is certainly better tasting

I dont agree, its the different varieties of fruits and veg that taste better/different not the growing organically.

is organic farming truly sustainable as a method of feeding the masses on a global scale?

From the very little I’ve learnt in the last week, I believe the answer to that question is biodynamic not organic farming.

I eat a lot of organic food and not sure it tastes better as a lot of food doesn’t have particularly bad processes behind it.
The animal welfare tends to be better though. Compare organic chicken eggs to free range chicken eggs and see the criteria for the conditions the chicken have. Free range is not as good as it sounds…

Eating local and seasonal is probably just as important as organic.

Organic asparagus bussed in from Peru or fresh leeks from down the road?

Absolutly CFH

I will not buy food flown in from far away. I would say eat local is more important.

Then they’d save a lot of money by not believing everything they read on the Internet.

In fairness, MS is pretty unstoppable, and there isn’t much that can do more than slow it down a bit. Improving your diet by cutting out processed shite and eating more veg may not be demonstrably effective, but isn’t going to do any harm and may make them feel a little less powerless.

I think most of the claims about Organic vs conventional are tenuous at best, but in this case it might well be a motivation that ends up improving the overall quality of a diet.

Better for environment

Not so clear cut

https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-shows-how-organic-farming-takes-its-toll-on-the-environment

I will not buy food flown in

Again, not so clear cut.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/mar/23/food.ethicalliving

organic is certainly better tasting and better for the environment

Maybe,maybe not. Organic, in the UK, just shows you have paid/had the time to fill out the paperwork for the certification which many small scale operations cant do.

@Cougar – yes both my friend and partner have MS.

I’ve read the book they mentioned re all clean/organic but as others have said, it lacks hard facts. I’m not against the idea and would happily spend the money but if my partner isn’t convinced it’s a no go.

They did mention lidl is a good place for cheap organic food so might check if out.

Unless they’ve given up salt, in which case their food will be tasteless, then their diet isn’t 100% organic!

My aversion to the whole organic fad came about when I was on Skye and a landowner (John Muir Trust) was looking to get organic certification for the venison on their land and they couldn’t as there weren’t defined boundaries. So venison from deer that roam around almost wild couldn’t be considered organic but if the were fenced in it could be. People can buy organic if they want but it isn’t better for you and as CFH says buying local is likely better overall.

Unless they’ve given up salt, in which case their food will be tasteless, then their diet isn’t 100% organic!

The term ‘organic’ has a different definition in food than it does in chemistry. Pedant.

Not so clear cut

https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-shows-how-organic-farming-takes-its-toll-on-the-environment

Indeed. But in the UK where everything that can be dug up has already be dug up, organic has significant environmental benefits.

I suspect that a hybrid approach is best, and that perhaps the strict certification process from the Soil Association is creating an all-or-nothing approach that does not help.

My aversion to the whole organic fad

Nor does throwing the baby out with the bath water.

100% clean (no processed foods)

I call BS, unless they’re knawing on earth encrusted carrots, picking at raw wheat kernels and taking bites of a cow’s rump.

Food processing is a broad spectrum, from peeling a potato to making hash browns for McDonalds. Even porridge oats are actually quite highly processed, as is an organic beef steak (kill cow > diassemble cow > chill and age dead cow > cut up dead aged cow > package bits (probably with some sort of preservative) > season > cook > eat).

I guess it’s good to have an awareness of how food is produced, andseeking out things which are less processed is probably a good thing. But when folk say things like “100% clean and unprocessed” it smacks of some sort of faddy diet and little understanding of the complexity of producing enough quality, affordable food for the world.

But when folk say things like “100% clean and unprocessed” it smacks of some sort of faddy diet

They mean they’re buying things that generally have only 1 ingredient (or no listed ingredients because they’re just buying whatever thing it is whole!) It might not be the correct, scientific, way to word it but it’s pretty obvious what they mean.

I suspect that a hybrid approach is best, and that perhaps the strict certification process from the Soil Association is creating an all-or-nothing approach that does not help.

Mitigating and reducing the effects of climate change and reducing land use will involve the use of GM food.

Which the hippies will just…love.

It really isn’t that obvious. Organic wholeweat sourdough artisanal bread is highly processed. Craft biodynamic ale is highly processed. Those instant just add water organic porridge pots are highly processed.

IME tt kind of just means that they’re only going to buy stuff that’s appropriately virtuous and aspirational.

organic is certainly better tasting and better for the environment ( perhaps that is arguable as yield per area can be lower)

I’m sorry, but neither of those points are valid.

Taste is subjective, but better quality food generally tastes better, but it’s not the organic nature of it per-se. ‘Organic’ is a premium product and as such has a higher standard of quality control.

It could be theoretically better for the environment if there weren’t 7.7bn people. Organic farming produces lower yields from a given farmland, higher (and frankly unnecessary) removal of ‘ugly’ Vegetables further reduces the yield further meaning more wild land being taken for farming.

Add into the mix the fact that Organic farms are rarer meaning food needs to be transported over greater distances.

I suppose one saving is that they don’t tend to wash organic veg as much to really sell the idea it’s grown in a field, and not like those non-organic lab grown Carrots.

It really isn’t that obvious. Organic wholeweat sourdough artisanal bread is highly processed. Craft biodynamic ale is highly processed.

Yes. Obviously. I think you need to read the first line of the OP again. It says “clean” AND “organic”, not one OR the other. No-one who eats “clean” is going to think bread or beer is OK, organic or otherwise.

I used to be evangelical about ‘organic’ but had to concede that everything is becoming lost in either/and definitions/unicorn rainbow claims. Homegrown food (including that from friend’s organic* garden and polytunnel(*in this instance zero pesticides) tastes better to me. But it doesn’t scale up. In an ideal world we’d get to the bottom of this. IMO the discussion is broken, partially due to the fact that ‘organic’ production is ideally and firstly about the environment/diverse ecosystems/tackling toxicity and pollution. This gets lost in the discussion about taste and health. The taste and personal/health benefits would (ideally) be a given. All I know for sure is that no tomatoes ever tasted as good as the ones in grandfather’s greenhouse. No idea if ‘organic’ or not, but you couldn’t eat them in the winter or spring they unless were in a chutney or from the freezer…

Supermarkets beg to differ. And there is the rub.

https://youtu.be/lBDQ7cA6baw

The term ‘organic’ has a different definition in food than it does in chemistry. Pedant.

Which further demonstrates just how much meaningless and waste of time the label actually is. I would be interested to hear what the difference between Salt that is labelled as organic and salt that is not actually is. I suspect that it really is just a matter of applying a label rather than doing anything different.

Also are you new here 😉

partially due to the fact that ‘organic’ production is ideally and firstly about the environment/diverse ecosystems/tackling toxicity and pollution.

No it isn’t.

It’s about middle class hippies feeling clean. What is best for the climate and the environment isn’t necessarily organic at all.

^Please. 🙄 How does that even help any discussion? Tabloidism?

Malvern, that video you posted just undermined the idea that it is about being better for the environment.

I would be interested to hear what the difference between Salt that is labelled as organic and salt that is not actually is.

Can’t technically label salt as organic but there are clear differences between a sea salt processed without adding anything and the 20p a pop table salt with additives such as iodine and anti caking agents.

I use sea salt and it definitely tastes better than table salt if tasted on it’s own. Once in food it is questionable and very much I doubt I would pass a blind test.

Malvern, that video you posted just undermined the idea that it is always about being better for the environment.

ftfy. Hence my use of the word ‘ideally’. And my including said video 👍🏼

People can buy organic if they want but it isn’t better for you

Can you prove that?

Mitigating and reducing the effects of climate change and reducing land use will involve the use of GM food.

Not necessarily, however GM isnt bad as such its just what is done with the technology thats the issue.

Organic food uses pesticides!!

Locally grown super organic stuff can be crap and more expensive. I have a local social enterprise that supplies in this format and it is more hit and miss and there is more chance of food waste.

Organic food uses pesticides!!

That statement is true in much the same way that ‘cyclists ride naked!’ is true. Best to ask your local co-op growers exactly what they use before lumping them in with every lazy generalisation or partially-misinforme possibly misleading soundbyte?

*edit

I suspect many ‘organic’ carrots have the wonky ones chucked ?

I also suspect that many don’t. This is fun innit.

What I don’t get is this ‘ugly’ veg not going on sale. I will actively buy the ‘wonky’ veg – just because my carrot isn’t perfectly straight, there is now’t wrong with it – I suspect many ‘organic’ carrots have the wonky ones chucked ?

There’s so much misconception here on all sides. Find a farmer you trust and buy fresh from them. Get your ambient staples from a coop like Greencity or Suma. There are pesticides in Organics but very few, generally biological and only in exceptional circumstances.

What is “biological”? You mean naturally occurring yes? Because that makes everything soo much better – hemlock is naturally occurring as well. Excuse me whilst I go and sprinkle some on my avocado toast.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_food#Pesticide_exposure

raybanscontextandattackstrawdefinitions

You mean ‘naturally occurring. bla bla bla hemlock

🙄

A biological pesticide is a biotechnical organism and can be either a biocidal product or a plant protection product. Biological control often includes natural enemies to the pest organisms to be controlled. Natural enemies can be micro-organisms such as bacteria, viruses and fungi or macro-organisms such as nematodes, insects or arachnids.

https://www.kemi.se/en/pesticides-and-biocides/biological-pesticides

Cheers Malvern, that’s a great definition. Example: using ladybirds to control aphids.