AirTag – the moral maze

Ok so I’m a recent switcher from android to iPhone (the jury is still out on that one by the way) but anyway because the ecosystem is new to me I’d never heard of the AirTag. So this week a relative gave me their Xmas list and it had AirTag at the top.
Me being busy and it being cheap and easily available  I literally pressed buy in about 3 minutes and it dropped through my door today.
It was only this evening that I took an interest and read up about what it actually was.

Initially my first thought was ‘awesome’ and lets buy myself a bunch, especially as I have a fancy iPhone 13 with which they will work really well and I’m always losing stuff at home and at work.

But then my social preservation gene kicked in and I thought about the negatives – sure enough after reading a couple of reviews it was clear I’d been right – they can be used by dodgy people for stalking purposes. This had occurred to me because we had had a stalking situation in the family this year and so it was fresh in my mind.

Apple like most tech firms haven’t taken human nature seriously unless it’s making them a profit and not designed in any real safety.

So bottom line is this product would be useful to me…..but buying it is legitimising it. The moral maze for tonight! What would you do?

Don’t they beep when away from your devices? A burner phone would be much easier to set up as a silent tracking/stalking device. So, don’t buy/use mobile phones if you’re worried about legitimising tech that can be used for nefarious purposes.

They beep after 3 days apparently. Not sure what that achieves.

As for the burner phone idea, I reckon a state of the art tag system the size of a pound coin which you can slip anywhere on someone’s property based on  a billion iOS devices and costing less than 30 quid might just be more popular. Especially as the battery lasts a year not 2 days.

But the burner phone doesn’t need to be near any devices to be traceable, and is also pretty easy to slip into people’s property. Add to that they’re used in nearly all crimes, not just stalking. If you don’t buy devices because someone else might use them to help them commit crimes, phones need to be top of your list.

If you have a smart phone on you and an AirTag is slipped into your pocket etc. you will know very quickly.

When you leave the vicinity of the “parent” phone your smart phone will start frequently getting nfc notifications. If you own an apple phone it will tell you an AirTag is following your location and it will show you on a map where the tag started following etc.

The beeping starts much quicker than 3 days too – assuming the parent phone is not too close.

They beep after 3 days apparently.

This was reduced to less than 1 day earlier this year.

Ahh ok that sounds much better.
The reviews I read were all saying it was only iPhone 11 onwards and no android phones that would alert you to an alien AirTag about your person and that separation from parent phone beeping kicked in after 3 days

I was reading last night that they’ve introduced a few updates to help reduce them being used for scrupulous purposes. Sadly I’m too shattered to recall the details. 🤦🏻‍♂️

Sadly I’m too shattered to recall the details.

… or to remember what “scrupulous” means. 😁

I really don’t see the moral dilemma here, sure if you had a relative that had just come out of prison for stalking someone and wanted a bunch of them as a Christmas present I could see the issue but for you own use (for what they are intended for)? The use they were designed for is perfectly legitimate and Apple have already made them less useful to people who choose to misuse them, I just don’t even understand why it would be an issue to consider. Lots of things you can buy (knives, binoculars, balaclavas… can all be misused, if you own any of those did you have a moral dilemma about legitimising them?)

I’d say the only dilemma would be in choosing to buy any Apple product given their track record with human misery in their supply chain but as you own an iPhone 13 I guess you’ve already made your choice (not criticising that, I own several Apple products myself).

Nah! I’m dyslexic so often get the meaning of words the arse way round.

Slow morning and didn’t know what AirTag was so was reading:

https://www.macrumors.com/guide/airtags/

… and now feel bad for Alan as it looks like his place has been turned over and his stuff fenced.

Also, can’t see how it would help if your hand’s trapped underneath a log.

On the moral front I can’t help you.
On the how this stuff works front, these are both good reads:
(Airtags can be used for naughty purposes) https://www.theregister.com/2021/09/29/weaponised_apple_airtags/
(Your phone is like a personal beacon)
https://www.theregister.com/2021/10/22/bluetooth_tracking_device/

To be honest I’d be more worried about Facebook and the lowest common denominator algorithms used for displaying negative content as these are rewiring our brains creating a sense of hopelessness and a desire to seek further negative content. (Basically “angry” gets more clicks then “positive” creating a loop of negative expectations and a desire to see even “angrier”.)

They beep after 3 days apparently. Not sure what that achieves.

Yep our bikes beep whenever I move them!

You can easily disable the speaker though. On my list of things to do (which I’ll never get round to) as the beeping just reminds someone whose nicked our bikes to remove the tag….

To be honest I’d be more worried about Facebook and the lowest common denominator algorithms used for displaying negative content as these are rewiring our brains creating a sense of hopelessness and a desire to seek further negative content. (Basically “angry” gets more clicks then “positive” creating a loop of negative expectations and a desire to see even “angrier”.)

Only if you subscribe / follow pages which have such content – my feed has zero angry stuff in it.

If you don’t buy devices because someone else might use them to help them commit crimes, phones knives need to be top of your list.

FTFY (as FuzzyWuzzy has already pointed out)

Thats a good article explaining it but I can possibly see some limitations.

e.g. If I’m on a train for 2 hours and the person behind me has a tag on their wallet, would I get a pointless notification that an unknown tag is travelling with me?
Conversely if someone slipped one onto my car at a bike race for the purpose of following me home to burgle me I would like to know.

FTFY

Yeah, that’s a much better example. I was thinking of going for cars as the example at one point… they’re very useful, yet so often repurposed for crime, including violent crimes. Perhaps too Singletrack Forum, so I stuck with mobile phones.

If I’m on a train for 2 hours and the person behind me has a tag on their wallet, would I get a pointless notification that an unknown tag is travelling with me?

If they powered their phone down, or didn’t have it with them, perhaps.

If they powered their phone down, or didn’t have it with them, perhaps.

Yup, thats me being dumb. Its only an orphaned tag that sends out the notification.

@footflaps
That’s the thing, you’re aware. But a significant portion of the population are not. Really facebook has simply built on the same outrage that the Daily Mail feeds.

Odd that nobody has mentioned the Tile system that functions in exactly the same way, has been around for a lot longer, and which includes small, self-adhesive tags that are even easier to hide. But Apple make AirTags, and immediately become the target for a whole bunch of ‘Shock! Horror!’ headlines.

#rollseyes.

And yes, I do have an AirTag, I bought it because I would regularly put my car keys down in an absent-minded fashion while doing something else, and then spend twenty minutes hunting everywhere for the bloody things, while getting told off. It seems to have worked – I haven’t once mislaid them since I got the tag…

Tile Buyer Life360 Selling Precise Location Data on Millions of Users [Updated] – MacRumors

yes, because Tile are such a nice company.

I’ve had a Tile on my car key for the past few years as I’m for ever misplacing it.

If you was worried about being tracked you would never use a mobile phone, computer or social media.

Apple have released an Android app for users at risk of being stalked using Airtags

https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/apple-launches-airtags-and-find-my-detector-app-for-android-in-effort-to-boost-privacy/

Apple like most tech firms haven’t taken human nature seriously unless it’s making them a profit and not designed in any real safety.

They’ve been pretty consistent at saying Airtags are only useful for finding things you’ve lost. They have specifically said that they aren’t useful for tracking kids, pets, or stolen items, reason being that solving those use cases will also turn them into stalking devices.

Apple have released an Android app for users at risk of being stalked using Airtags

Unlike on iOS, it doesn’t seem like this app will constantly do scans in the background and alert you if something is up — it’s purely a manual search

hmmmm

If you was worried about being tracked you would never use a mobile phone, computer or social media.

Except it’s a lot harder to figure out someone’s precise location with those than just attaching an easily hidden device.

On the speaker – big deal. You do realise these will be as challenging to open and remove the speaker as any mobile phone? What then? It can beep beep beep away till the cows come home but if there’s no way of hearing it what use is it?

This thing about Android devices not easily picking them up is worrying as well.

But hey, it’s fine, it’s just because we’re Apple haterz that we’re pointing out the downsides and phones are much more dangerous. Up until the first load of folk get them attached to their cars at the trails and done over that is (wait, that’ll never happen either, nobody has ever been followed home and had folk come back later).

It’s not like there are similar technologies available that work on a much more localised level *cough*Bluetooth*cough*.

Fair enough squirrelking, I’m not trying to protect apple – they’re a $trillion company so they definitely are evil!

Attaching a detectable traceable device that costs £25 to someone’s car seems like a mad way for a stalker/ bike thief to go about their business, but I don’t doubt that there are nefarious uses for these things.

Attaching a detectable traceable device that costs £25 to someone’s car seems like a mad way for a stalker/ bike thief to go about their business

Considering the potential payoff £25 is buttons. And it’s easily recoverable as well.

Detectability? Well that all depends on whether the victim keeps their NFC turned on all the time and even then it depends who’s garden they’re playing in.

This thing about Android devices not easily picking them up is worrying as well.

absolutely nothing to stop whoever develops Android implementing it as a core feature, though.

And if you’re on an older version?

And if you’re on an older version?

it’s a problem but it’s not Apple’s problem… running out-of-date software leaves you open to all kinds of potential security issues… inconvenient maybe to the user who doesn’t want to have to bother with this kind of thing, but that’s the world we live in now!

And if you’re on an older version?

Best hope you’re not doing any form of online banking etc on that phone 🤦‍♂️

Odd that nobody has mentioned the Tile system that functions in exactly the same way, has been around for a lot longer, and which includes small, self-adhesive tags that are even easier to hide. But Apple make AirTags, and immediately become the target for a whole bunch of ‘Shock! Horror!’ headlines.

#rollseyes.

Tile is a great system, but has the massive flaw that you have to have the tile app on your phone to report the location of tile devices.

Apples FindMy system has the huge coverage as it works on basically all iPhones by default – so suddenly it has basically global coverage which is brilliant for a product perspective, but does also raise the concerns talked about in this thread.

Considering the potential payoff £25 is buttons. And it’s easily recoverable as well.

Detectability? Well that all depends on whether the victim keeps their NFC turned on all the time and even then it depends who’s garden they’re playing in.

It’s only easily recoverable if the person targeted lives in a reasonable distance – no way for a thief to know that ahead of time. Or what operating system their phone is on.

If I found an unknown airtag on my car/belongings, there’s no good reason for that and it would immediately put me on high alert. I’d probably call the police and tell them I was being tracked. The AirTag is linked to a phone, in turn linked to an identity. Therefore the consequence of detection is high for a would be criminal. Higher than just following someone back to their house in a van, for instance.

And the things are designed to be detected – that’s the whole point of them after all.

Sure, IF the rider is on Android and IF they aren’t travelling or living with an iPhone user they might not know about the tag. IF they live within a reasonable distance and their bike is reasonably easy to access, it might be a clever way of nicking some bikes 🤷

But there’s definitely easier ways, with less risk of being caught. One of those would be to buy a non Apple branded tracker!

If I found an unknown airtag on my car/belongings, there’s no good reason for that and it would immediately put me on high alert. I’d probably call the police and tell them I was being tracked.

Many women have found that to be a pretty futile thing to do

it’s a problem but it’s not Apple’s problem

No, just the poor bugger that gets done over.

Best hope you’re not doing any form of online banking etc on that phone

I’m on an older version of Android that still receives security updates but feature updates are long gone. Try again.

It’s only easily recoverable if the person targeted lives in a reasonable distance – no way for a thief to know that ahead of time. Or what operating system their phone is on.

Well that’s the gamble isn’t it? But if you’re targeting high end bikes then as I said £25 is nothing and would probably save you the fuel needed to follow one car home.

If I found an unknown airtag on my car/belongings, there’s no good reason for that and it would immediately put me on high alert.

Me too. Unfortunately I’m not under my car or in about all the nooks and crannies regularly so you could probably hide a dozen of the things on it and I’d be none the wiser. It’s not difficult to just zip tie it onto a loom, hose or any other handy bit. Or just throw it into a scuttle panel.

The AirTag is linked to a phone, in turn linked to an identity. Therefore the consequence of detection is high for a would be criminal

Is it bollocks. Or are you labouring under the assumption the second hand market doesn’t exist?

Sure, IF the rider is on Android and IF they aren’t travelling or living with an iPhone user they might not know about the tag. IF they live within a reasonable distance and their bike is reasonably easy to access, it might be a clever way of nicking some bikes 🤷

Or, more likely, nobody in the car has NFC running all the time. I turn mine off out of habit after I’ve used it. You also seem to be massively underestimating the kind of thieves that steal high end bikes to order.

But there’s definitely easier ways, with less risk of being caught. One of those would be to buy a non Apple branded tracker!

I’m not disputing this. But don’t be under the impression that just because it’s Apple it’s any more secure.

you could probably hide a dozen of the things on it and I’d be none the wiser.

Max of 16 tags linked to a phone. So hiding 12 of them in a victims car rapidly stops being practical unless you also want to get loads of iPhones.

Is it bollocks.

No need for that and don’t hold this Apple thing against me too much, I’m ok really!

Or are you labouring under the assumption the second hand market doesn’t exist?

My iPhone is second hand, so no, I’m not labouring under that assumption. iPhones are very easy to trace unless they are factory reset and not in use, even with a PAYG SIM. They don’t make good burner phones.

Or, more likely, nobody in the car has NFC running all the time.

There’s no way to manually turn off NFC on an iPhone. If an iPhone detects an AirTag travelling with it, and the registered owner of the AirTag isn’t present, then you get an onscreen alert with various information about the AirTag. You also get various ways of disabling it and locating it. Any phone with NFC can tap an AirTag to get this info.

If you manage to get the police to take you seriously (which I admit isn’t a given @doris5000, but if you can show evidence of 12 trackers attached to your car they might) then they can work with Apple to track down the owner of the AirTags.

don’t be under the impression that just because it’s Apple it’s any more secure.

The Samsung SmartTag app doesn’t automatically scan or alert you to nearby unknown SmartTags. You have to manually initiate a search.

Tile still don’t have any anti-stalking features (“coming in 2022”) and when they are added, they will require manual initiation.

A quick search for “Tracking device” on Amazon throws up dozens of better alternatives for bike thieves and stalkers.

Critique Apple for the way they treat their workforce, or use up the worlds resources, or the way they have attempted to get into China, or the way they bully app developers and use their size to manipulate the market. But bloody hell these little marvels help my wife find her car keys daily, and they remind me when I’ve left my wallet at home, and they do have some fairly well thought through anti stalking features, so leave off!

Max of 16 tags linked to a phone. So hiding 12 of them in a victims car rapidly stops being practical unless you also want to get loads of iPhones.

I wasn’t suggesting they would drop a dozen on one car. Just that if they were to do so they could do it rather easily with minimal chance of discovery.

Wasn’t aware iPhones can’t turn off NFC, thats pretty crap tbh. But since the Airtag runs off Bluetooth that point is moot since you CAN turn that off. So, again, if Bluetooth is off then you’re none the wiser.

As for a factory reset, that’s nothing to do with how traceable a phone is or matching it to a new user. As I say, your claim of high consequences holds no water. Its literally as consequential as losing an air tag if its found.

Tile appear to be reliant on other users of the app rather than every single device made for the ecosystems they operate in so have very limited capability in comparison. Samsung is reliant on Galaxy devices so again, much more limited in power.

I’m not saying its a perfect system but its inexpensive (in the grand scheme), safe (as chances of being caught are minimal) and well served by a network of friendly devices to help you locate it.

I think you’re misunderstanding how quickly an airtag separated from its owner alerts other iphones that it is travelling with.

Detected airtags will be traceable back the owner, though admittedly that will depend on a suitably motivated police force.

I don’t think iPhone users spend so much time wanting to toggle bluetooth and other radios as you think they might either.

I’m sure it’s going to happen, because enough people (it seems) think it will work. But they’ll lose a load of Airtags and eventually they’ll get caught.

Also how are they going to nick Santa Cruz’s if they can only track Android owners?

I think you’re misunderstanding how quickly an airtag separated from its owner alerts other iphones that it is travelling with.

ONLY IF THEY HAVE BLUETOOTH ON.

I think you’re also misunderstanding how many folk actually HAVE an iPhone.

Detected airtags will be traceable back the owner

No, they’ll be traceable back to the device they are attached to. That is not the same thing.

I don’t think iPhone users spend so much time wanting to toggle bluetooth and other radios as you think they might either.

I don’t think you can claim that one way or another TBH. Neither of us can.

FWIW I get your argument but when you apply the swiss cheese model it’s arse about face. You should be making it so that if one thing fails the other defences are there as back up, in this case if one thing fails it takes down the whole defence. That’s just poor.

But they’ll lose a load of Airtags and eventually they’ll get caught.

I’d like to hope so but going by previous form I doubt it.

Also how are they going to nick Santa Cruz’s if they can only track Android owners?

Fair point. Would be quicker and easier just doing a DVLA dive for T6’s.

I think you’re also misunderstanding how many folk actually HAVE an iPhone.

lol… if there’s no iPhone nearby, what is relaying the AirTag signal back to the crim? It’s not magic 😀 If there’s something to relay it, there’s something to detect it!

But since the Airtag runs off Bluetooth

except it doesn’t (exclusively) of course… iPhone 11 onwards (I.e. phones sold in the last 3 years) it uses UWB. Most people (like yourself) have probably never even heard of it, let alone know how to delve a few levels down in the settings menu to turn it off!