Abortion….

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  • Abortion….
  • alpin
    Member

    Listening to Radio 4 this week I was surprised to hear that abortion is illegal in Northern Ireland.

    Trump’s signing that no money will go to any charity that supports abortion seems to carry quite some support in the US.

    Personally I don’t think anyone but the pregnant women should get to decide.

    loddrik
    Member

    Personally I don’t think anyone but the pregnant women should get to decide.

    Absolutely 100% in agreement.

    Premier Icon funkmasterp
    Subscriber

    Also 100% agree. It’s a decision for the woman and nobody else. I too didn’t realise that it is still illegal in N.I

    scotroutes
    Member

    Personally I don’t think anyone but the pregnant women should get to decide.

    Agree 99.99999999%. I think there have been a handful cases where it was determined that the woman had insufficient mental awareness to understand what was happening. It’s a very dangerous line to cross though given how that could be manipulated.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Twelve pages.

    Personally I don’t think anyone but the pregnant women should get to decide.

    You’re right, of course. Whatever your views on abortion, surely doing it clinically is preferable to a bottle of Detol and a coat hanger down a back street somewhere.

    Not all that surprising that it’s illegal in NI, it’s a country that spent decades killing each other up over an argument about which two slightly different versions of the same religion they should all be following. Every sperm is sacred (because, free new believers) and all that.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    I think there have been a handful cases where it was determined that the woman had insufficient mental awareness to understand what was happening. It’s a very dangerous line to cross though given how that could be manipulated.

    Good point, but that’s cause for regulation rather than an outright ban of course. There needs to be measures in place to protect vulnerable fringe cases.

    Jamie
    Member

    I disagree.

    Twelve pages.

    That should do it.

    km79
    Member

    Abortion should be illegal and woman who get one should be prosecuted. The only way a woman should be allowed to have an abortion is if a man decides she can or indeed orders her to have one. Something like that anyway, seems to be the general gist of the way things are going.

    Premier Icon slackboy
    Subscriber

    It’s a horrible thing to have to consider and I can’t imagine the turmoil that women in that situation feel. But the only person who should make the decision is the person who is pregnant.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35980195

    Premier Icon slackboy
    Subscriber

    Abortion should be illegal and woman who get one should be prosecuted. The only way a woman should be allowed to have an abortion is if a man decides she can or indeed orders her to have one. Something like that anyway, seems to be the general gist of the way things are going.

    That needs massive *irony* tags around it

    scotroutes
    Member

    km79 – good try but you’re no davidtaylforth 🙂

    shermer75
    Member

    There is evidence to suggest that Trump’s executive order intended to stop abortions will in fact do the opposite

    link

    km79
    Member

    Wasn’t meant to be a troll, just a comment on the direction a significant amount seem to be moving us towards over the last couple years.

    From the UK. If abortion had been more freely available at the time of my conception, I would most likely have been aborted.

    It seems to me it would have been generally better all round if I had been for the people involved at the time and for all the consequent lives affected by my conception.

    My parents were warm to me as a child and I grew up with them. I have no guilt at existing, as none of the consequences or actions at the time were my choices. I feel sad for the people in the situation at the time. If my parents had been able to abort me I would not have missed being alive, as I would never have experienced the world.

    I fully support responsible, emotionally counseled abortion.

    jambalaya
    Member

    Listening to Radio 4 this week I was surprised to hear that abortion is illegal in Northern Ireland.

    I don’t think that’s strictly true, as per Ireland (ie Republic) it’s available in limited circumstances. It is strange to me the Republic had a Referendum of same sex marriage (passed easily) but they don’t have one on abortion. I believe abortions are difficult to get in Spain too.

    Do i agree with the restrictions ? No.

    It’s a very odd situation. People try to impose their religious or personal beliefs on another with blanket bans rather than allowing discussion and choice. In many areas where abortion is prohibited or restricted DIY or backstreet attempts cause great harm. Also if the mother does not want the child or is unable to care for it then why force them to have it?
    The people campaigning against abortion are normally just that. Against abortion not pro life. If they were pro life they would support public healthcare, benefits for mothers (leave from work and money), social housing support, better workplace regulation, decent (and safe) schools etc.
    Sorry for the rant but every second advert I see since Trumps order seems to be about how wonderful it is to put your unplanned baby up for adoption…

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    cornholio98 – Member

    The people campaigning against abortion are normally just that. Against abortion not pro life. If they were pro life they would support public healthcare, benefits for mothers (leave from work and money), social housing support, better workplace regulation, decent (and safe) schools etc.

    Yup. And there’s also the strange correlations between pro-life and pro-death penalty, pro-life and pro-military intervention. Life is important til you’re born. Except even that’s not simple because lots of pro-lifers are against affordable healthcare.

    Flaperon
    Member

    The Northern Ireland thing baffles me. To make it even more unjust, a woman from Northern Ireland cannot have an abortion on the NHS in England, being forced to pay for it privately which makes us little better.

    I donate to Marie Stopes because I find such backwards thinking absolutely reprehensible.

    PeterPoddy
    Member

    Personally I don’t think anyone but the pregnant women should get to decide.

    Agreed, but to me personally, abortion for convenience sake is murder.

    Premier Icon bikebouy
    Subscriber

    I’ll support abortion, but I’m not a Woman so have absolutely No Idea what the emotional implications are/could be/will be in the moments after or years to come or impact on immediate family/friends or relationships.

    To ban it on the grounds of Relgion is IMO very very wrong.

    Premier Icon cheers_drive
    Subscriber

    The people campaigning against abortion are normally just that. Against abortion not pro life. If they were pro life they would support public healthcare, benefits for mothers (leave from work and money), social housing support, better workplace regulation, decent (and safe) schools etc.

    Exactly. And if it’s on religious grounds because only God has the power to give and take life then what about medical intervention to save life’s, is that not against God’s will?

    Agreed, but to me personally, abortion for convenience sake is murder.

    Which is fine as long as you have your view and can still let women choose.

    ninfan
    Member

    Personally I don’t think anyone but the pregnant women should get to decide.

    Just to be clear here, are you saying that there should be no limits on abortion, and the pregnant woman alone should decide on things, up to the point of birth?

    You know, like up to week 39, when the baby could easily survive out of the womb?

    Or are you happy with there being some limits on abortion, like a certain point in the gestation?

    Not trolling, genuinely interested where/when people would draw the line.

    Edit: OITNB had an excellent take on things:

    [video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uLMFpt8xgoY[/video]

    bencooper
    Member

    Agreed, but to me personally, abortion for convenience sake is murder.

    It’s a pretty traumatic thing, both physically and emotionally – I’d wager that very, very few women have an abortion for convenience.

    To ban it on the grounds of Relgion is IMO very very wrong.

    To fair to claim that an unborn child is simply a foetus and not a human being for the first 24 weeks, and then suddenly, and quite miraculously, becomes a human being for the remaining 26 weeks, sounds quasi-religious to me. What magical event occurs to make them into a human being?

    Premier Icon bikebouy
    Subscriber

    And whose to say when/if/how they become “a human being” ?

    gerti
    Member

    I struggle to form an opinion on abortion. I have given birth to 2 healthy children and I don’t believe that at any point I could’ve made the decision to kill the heartbeat in my stomach. But I was never made to decide, I was never in that situation, so I don’t see how I can know.

    If you abort a baby, you are then induced to give birth to that (now dead) baby. Horrific. Hardly a decision any woman would take lightly? But I also believe that an unborn child is just that, a child, a human, so why should even it’s mother be allowed to kill him/her?

    It’s a really complex issue with no easy answers IMO

    Premier Icon BoardinBob
    Subscriber

    Peter wrote:

    Agreed, but to me personally, abortion for convenience sake is murder.

    So don’t do it then

    And also don’t tell anyone else they can’t do it. It’s their choice, not yours.

    Premier Icon BoardinBob
    Subscriber

    gerti wrote:

    It’s a really complex issue with no easy answers IMO

    And what Trump has done is to remove the ability for some of the poorest and most vulnerable women in the world to ask questions and receive any answers on the subject of abortion

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    I also believe that an unborn child is just that, a child, a human, so why should even it’s mother be allowed to kill him/her?

    It’s a really complex issue with no easy answers IMO

    It is, which is the problem. The thorny issue is, at what point is it a “child”? When it’s recognisable as one physically? When its brain starts to form? When it’s just a bag of cells? The first cell divide? When a sperm and an egg meet? Before that even, are you committing murder every time a woman ovulates or a man has an orgasm anywhere other than is traditional?

    It’s difficult to define, which is I suppose just one reason is why it’s such a controversial topic. I can’t begin to imagine what it must be like to be in a position where you have to make that decision, from a careless teenager who made a mistake to someone who’s been a rape victim, the mental and emotional stress must be incredible.

    Which is why, as a bloke, I get very angry indeed when other people (usually men) dictate to potentially vulnerable women what they can and can’t do with their bodies. It’s none of our ****ing business, frankly.

    CountZero
    Member

    km79 – Member
    Abortion should be illegal and woman who get one should be prosecuted. The only way a woman should be allowed to have an abortion is if a man decides she can or indeed orders her to have one. Something like that anyway, seems to be the general gist of the way things are going.

    It must be so reassuring to be that certain about the rights of other people. Who the **** died and made you Elvis, then? What gives you the right to dictate how others should live?

    mogrim
    Member

    Which is why, as a bloke, I get very angry indeed when other people (usually men) dictate to potentially vulnerable women what they can and can’t do with their bodies. It’s none of our ****ing business, frankly.

    Devil’s advocate, but I have an opinion on loads of things that don’t (or haven’t) directly affect(ed) my body: murder, rape, child porn, wearing a bike helmet etc. etc. The fact that it’s not my body doesn’t necessarily mean that society doesn’t have a legitimate interest in a person’s behaviour.

    Personally I think abortion is completely the woman’s decision up until the foetus would be viable outside the womb. Of course there’s no exact point when that is true, but around 22-23 weeks would seem to be the limit. Beyond that there would need to be a serious medical reason to permit abortion.

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    I am pro choice for women.

    However, I think there is and always will be a thorny area regarding the involvement of the father when the potential parents are in a healthy, committed and stable relationship.

    Not trolling.

    Premier Icon bearnecessities
    Subscriber

    CZ, he wasn’t being serious.

    Just being a cheeky monkey to make a point 🙂

    jimjam
    Member

    jambalaya

    I don’t think that’s strictly true, as per Ireland (ie Republic) it’s available in limited circumstances. It is strange to me the Republic had a Referendum of same sex marriage (passed easily) but they don’t have one on abortion.

    It’s effectively illegal in the Republic. Even in the very limited circumstances that it could be allowed (to preserve the life of the mother) it appears doctors will er on the side of risk to the mother as opposed to abort. There were a couple of notorious cases in the last few years where pregnant women died due to doctors/court being unable to decide what to do.

    There will probably be another abortion referendum in the republic sometime soon I imagine.

    Flaperon
    The Northern Ireland thing baffles me.

    Northern Ireland’s largest political party is the DUP – they are essentially the political wing of the Free Presbyterian church, Ian Paisley’s church. A bunch creationist/literalist religious fundamentalists. They’ve repeatedly abused their political power to block same sex marriage and equality for LGBT people. They wouldn’t be out of place in the 1600s.

    I posted up a link a few years ago wherein a former DUP minister objected at the motion to pardon two women who were hanged for witchcraft on the grounds there was no way to be sure they weren’t witches.

    Premier Icon SaxonRider
    Subscriber

    And also don’t tell anyone else they can’t do it. It’s their choice, not yours.

    See, I don’t get that idea.

    It depends on what point at which you believe that life begins. As ninfan suggests, above, there must be some point at which one must concede that there is an actual person in utero, and not just a bunch of cells.

    For some, that is earlier than for others. But I would expect a vast majority of us think it happens eventually, so it’s not like someone who thinks it happens earlier than others is necessarily reprehensible.

    And once we agree on the fact that an actual person now exists, then it is definitely NOT the woman’s choice, because it is no longer just a woman’s body that we are talking about.

    1. I believe absolutely that a woman should have the right to choose what happens with and to her body.

    2. I also happen to believe that life begins earlier than the current law suggests.

    Therefore, I don’t tend to accept the absolute idea that it is just ‘choice’ versus ‘others who want to impose their will’.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    nce we agree on the fact that an actual person now exists, then it is definitely NOT the woman’s choice, because it is no longer just a woman’s body that we are talking about.

    Assuming that to be true, who is best poised to make that decision? The woman in question, or some orange bloke with a bad suit and worse hair?

    Premier Icon SaxonRider
    Subscriber

    Definitely not the orange bloke. BUT, as with so many controversial moral issues that must be addressed in the law, I would suggest that it be determined by a coming together of minds from different disciplines and positions, and NOT by pressure groups or the loudest lobby.

    bencooper – Member
    Agreed, but to me personally, abortion for convenience sake is murder.
    It’s a pretty traumatic thing, both physically and emotionally – I’d wager that very, very few women have an abortion for convenience.

    I would suggest that most abortions are performed for convenience . Apart from the few that are performed because there’s a genuine medical reason what other reason is there for having one other than convenience .
    It is also illegal on the Isle of Man although the government are currently considering changing the law .

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    as with so many controversial moral issues that must be addressed in the law, I would suggest that it be determined by a coming together of minds from different disciplines and positions, and NOT by pressure groups or the loudest lobby.

    Totally agree.

    Sadly, history has thus far proven that this doesn’t always happen.

    (Cf. Brexit.)

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