Viewing 40 posts - 81 through 120 (of 240 total)
  • anothrer nuclear power station cancelled
  • Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    Honestly Nuclear fission is the only currently available solution to provide suitable base load of electrical generation without burning fossil fuels

    Except it’s not currently available.

    Fission is available, fusion is not.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Full Member

    anyway – as ever views will not be changed but i do hope that a few folk might actually read up a bit on this and make up their minds.

    Prize for the least self aware post of the year goes to…

    Edit, Molly beat me to it…

    Premier Icon gonefishin
    Free Member

    You did a few posts above. You denied the floating tidal generators existed

    TJ I posted the details of the tidal flow turbines in strangford lough. At no point have I EVER said that tidal generators do not exist. No one has. I’ve questioned their suitability to provide base load but that is a totally different thing. Now how about you

    “back up your claim of 20% of the UKs energy that could be available from the Pentland firm I believe it was.”

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    Estimates for the potential of the pentland firth are in the 10 GW range – and that is NOT the only site available. ( the range of estimates is huge tho)

    Premier Icon gobuchul
    Free Member

    another reason is the SNP are in thrall to the O&G industry and really do not get it.

    Aberdeen is on its arse.

    There are so many people out of work and companies going to the wall, it’s terrible.

    If this was viable on a large scale then people would be jumping on it.

    There are loads of construction vessels sitting idle. They are desperate to find work.

    4 prototypes, that have a number of faults, is not proven. Why can’t you understand that?

    The SNP have been going on about it for years. From wiki:

    Currents of up to 5 metres per second (11 mph) make the Pentland Firth potentially one of the best sites in the world for tidal power. This has taken on a political dimension. The SNP Energy Review of July 2006 claimed that the Firth could produce “10 to 20 GW of synchronous electricity” and First Minister Alex Salmond claimed that the Pentland Firth could be “the Saudi Arabia of tidal power”with an output of “20 gigawatts and more than that”In July 2013 Dr Thomas Adcock of Oxford University stated that the Firth “is almost certainly the best site for tidal stream power in the world” although a peer-reviewed study he led suggested that the maximum potential of the Firth was 1.9 GW of tidal power, with 1 GW being a more realistic figure.

    So 1 GW, could replace 1 typical Nuclear power station.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    No you are not mate. People are basing their arguments on false premises

    and I still await the answers to those two questions on nuclear.

    Premier Icon gonefishin
    Free Member

    Estimates for the potential of the pentland firth are in the 10 GW range – and that is NOT the only site available. ( the range of estimates is huge tho)

    Back up your actual claim that it can provide 20% of the UKs energy needs and whilst you’re at it quote me where I said Tidal didn’t exist.

    Premier Icon gobuchul
    Free Member

    You did a few posts above. You denied the floating tidal generators existed

    No, I stated that there were none in the Pentland Firth.

    TJ – that floaty thing you linked to, have you any idea how difficult it would be to safely moor that in an area that has extreme currents and terrible winter weather?

    The engineering involved would be pretty impressive.

    Then you have to maintain it.

    x 50.

    Can you imagine what dynamic loads would be on that structure with it’s turning turbines in a 5kt current below and heaving up and down in 20m seas?

    Premier Icon gobuchul
    Free Member

    and that is NOT the only site available

    How many other sites have identified?

    From what I understand, you need around 5kts of current to make it worth while.

    Where else is suitable?

    Premier Icon gobuchul
    Free Member

    People are basing their arguments on false premises

    What like the Pentland Firth supplying 20% of UK energy needs?

    When a peer reviewed study estimated it could produce 1 MW?

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    Really? Floating ones? Some one better get a Nav Warning out as they aren’t charted!

    Premier Icon frankconway
    Full Member

    I wouldn’t place any confidence in comments from a power generation specialist about a medical condition.

    Premier Icon hols2
    Free Member

    When a peer reviewed study estimated it could produce 1 MW?

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/wave-goodbye-to-hope-of-tidal-energy-exports-scots-politicians-told-8698504.html

    Premier Icon gonefishin
    Free Member

    TJ he said there weren’t any in the Pentland Firth that was abundantly clear to anyone reading the post. The link you provided to make your point related to Orkney, which isn’t the pentland firth.

    Actually I’m talking crap there. Got my geography completely wrong. No idea what I was thinking.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    No Gobuchal- tidal could produce 20% of the UKs needs using existing tech and that estimate of IGW is the lowest bar far ( not 1MW)

    other sites – sound of islay is the ideal partner site to the pentland firth. I believe portland bill is another although i have not looked into it at all and others such as the menai straight have been mentioned.

    40 GW ish is the total UK electricity consumption? 1 GW at a very conservative estimate from the pentland firth, similar from the sound of islay. 2 gw of 40 GW is 5%. thats just from 2 sites using the lowest estimates

    20 % is certainly within range

    Premier Icon slowoldman
    Full Member

    Honestly Nuclear fission is the only currently available solution to provide suitable base load of electrical generation without burning fossil fuels

    Except it’s not currently available.

    Oops. Misread that. FUSION not currently available.

    TJ – Dinorwig is still a hydro electric generator as it generates power using water flow. The technology used is a subset of hydro technology

    It’s still just a big battery.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    Ta gonefishing

    Premier Icon big_n_daft
    Free Member

    I’d like to see the HRA for 1GW of tidal in a single location

    Then again in Scotland SEPA take a more “nuanced” view

    Premier Icon gonefishin
    Free Member

    40 GW ish is the total UK electricity consumption?

    So we’re now down to Electricity rather than energy.

    1GW being the best estimate by experts representing approximately 2.8% of the 1Q of electricity for the UK in the 1Q 2020 (78.3 TWh I’ve averaged at 38.6 GW). Quite some way short of 20% and that’s from the best site in the UK. Worth having absolutely no argument from me but don’t kid yourself that it’s easy. The new wind farms that are going in produce orders of magnitude more than that.

    Premier Icon sadmadalan
    Full Member

    If tidal worked as claimed, why have other countries around the world not set up their own? We are not the only island country, or the only country with strong tidal streams. It is nothing to do with trying to suppress the Scottish economy and everything to do with the technology not being ready yet. They have been talking about tidal stream energy for decades, those of old enough to have watched “Tomorrows World” will have seen early examples.

    It is a very difficult problem to solve which can be scaled up at an economic rate to make it a viable solution. I think of it a bit like Fusion – when it works, it will be great, but until it works and can be scaled with a viable economic cost, then it is just the future. But how do we solve the need now to meet our electricity demand and reduce burning of carbon fuels? Yes, we can mange demand better, but with the move to electric cars the demand will go up.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    HRA?

    Premier Icon gobuchul
    Free Member

    using existing tech

    I will ask again, which tech is this?

    Yes, I know that if you put a turbine in moving water you can attach it to a generator and produce electricity. We all know there is more to it than that.

    A handful of glichy prototypes does not “prove” anything.

    No Gobuchal- tidal could produce 20% of the UKs needs using existing tech and that estimate of IGW is the lowest bar far ( not 1MW)

    1000 MW = 1GW.

    Drax has 4GW capacity.

    Pentland could replace an average power station.

    That’s not my opinion but that of Dr Thomas Adcock, Associate Professor in the Department of Engineering Science at the University of Oxford

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    sadmadalan

    Scotland is in a very unusual place with regard to tidal flow. I know of no other country were the same conditions exist ( narrow channels and high flows)

    Other countries do have tidal barrage schemes

    Premier Icon gobuchul
    Free Member

    HRA?

    Hazard Identification and Risk Assessment.

    Takes into account all of the hazards and subsequent risks from any activity.

    There would probably be potentially serious environmental issues from the change in the natural water flow that such a large tidal “farm” would cause.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    yes – and that 1gw is 2- 3 % of the UK consumption is it not? Add in the same from sound of islay, add in the other sites and 20% is not far off. that estimate orf 1 GW while it looks robust is the lowest I have seen

    total extimnate tidal power avaiable from scottish coasts alone is 14 GW on the most optomitic estimates. thats 30+ % of UK needs from tnhe scottish coast alone

    So in your book something that has been running for years in the MW region for years is simply discounted as glitchy and unreliable?

    and all that done with tiny invesatment

    Premier Icon gobuchul
    Free Member

    Scotland is in a very unusual place with regard to tidal flow. I know of no other country were the same conditions exist ( narrow channels and high flows)

    West Coast of Canada has larger tidal ranges and plenty of narrow channels.

    Premier Icon big_n_daft
    Free Member

    Habitats Regulations Assessment

    Premier Icon big_n_daft
    Free Member

    total extimnate tidal power avaiable from scottish coasts alone is 14 GW on the most optomitic estimates. thats 30+ % of UK needs from tnhe scottish coast alone

    Transmission losses?

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    Oh that risk assesssment will be fun for sure. wonder what its like for sizewell?

    it really amuses me tho the way that pro nuclear folk will use the opposite arguments to promote nuclear and to state tidal will not work

    shortage of nuclear fuel? we will find more. No solution to waste – tech will provide

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    West Coast of Canada has larger tidal ranges and plenty of narrow channels.
    Posted 2 minutes ago

    good point. I have only really been looking at the scottish stuff

    Premier Icon big_n_daft
    Free Member

    it really amuses me tho the way that pro nuclear folk will use the opposite arguments to promote nuclear and to state tidal will not work

    I think it’s more the evangelical promotion of a technology by someone who has no experience in the renewables or power generation sector. Coupled with the wiff of conspiracy theories…

    Premier Icon gonefishin
    Free Member

    yes – and that 1gw is 2- 3 % of the UK consumption is it not? Add in the same from sound of islay, add in the other sites and 20% is not far off. that estimate orf 1 GW while it looks robust is the lowest I have seen

    TJ stop making numbers up.

    yes – and that 1gw is 2- 3 % of the UK consumption is it not? Add in the same from sound of islay, add in the other sites and 20% is not far off. that estimate orf 1 GW while it looks robust is the lowest I have seen

    By whom? Because if the answer is an SNP (or to be fair another party) politician the number is almost certainly wrong.

    So in your book something that has been running for years in the MW region for years is simply discounted as glitchy and unreliable?

    Scaling from MW to GW is not an easy task. Also I don’t have the data to determine just how reliable the operation of those trial units have been and neither do you.

    shortage of nuclear fuel? we will find more. No solution to waste – tech will provide

    Oh and if you could stop misrepresenting what people say that would be great.

    Premier Icon gobuchul
    Free Member

    So in your book something that has been running for years in the MW region for years is simply discounted as glitchy and unreliable?

    I haven’t discounted it but it’s not yet ready to scale up. It needs further development.

    As I said earlier, a few years is not really enough to prove it and invest millions/billions in a major installation. Those prototypes have had issues.

    It’s not just the turbines but the installation techniques and suitable vessels that can work in the location. I know personally of one installation where it wrong and they ended up with a “turn” in the export cable. Easy to do when working in those currents but a major issue.

    There are currently no construction vessels that can operate safely through the whole tidal cycle up there. So you have limited windows of opportunity to perform the installation.

    There are some other factors to consider, all these operations need to be insured. No underwriter will insure you until you have performed 3rd party verification on the engineering and procedures. So if you kit is flawed and procedures too risky, forget it.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    Gonfishing – please educate me on the numbers then.

    whats the UK total consumption? the 1 GW from the pentland firth is a robust estimate from a respected engineer. Its the lowest i have seen but lets use it. ( he actually says 1.9 GW possible but 1 gw more likely) other estimates are hugely higher but lets use that one.

    sound of islay has similar potential. thats 10% of UK consumption from 2 sites.

    Where is my arithmetic wrong?

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    Oh and if you could stop misrepresenting what people say that would be great.

    Where is that misrepresentation?

    again where is the uranium coming from to scale up nuclear? the best estimate is we have 40 years worth at current consumption and please as well me the solution to waste

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    “Pentland Firth promises to be one of the best sites in the world for tidal power. What our research shows is that it could potentially generate power equivalent to almost half of Scotland’s annual electricity consumption,” said Thomas Adcock, the Oxford University engineer who led the research.

    I had the link to the report but lost it. the 8 times higher estimate is the political one. 1 gw is certainly a conservative estimate but using conservative estimates is good practice.

    Premier Icon Daffy
    Full Member

    alex222
    Free Member
    Nuclear is safer than fossil fuel and as green as renewables.

    @alex222 – that’s NOT what it says. It says that it has equally low carbon emissions when compared to renewables. That’s not the same as being “green”. Decommissioning and storage of radioactive waste and equipment is in no way “green” It’s literally toxic. For THOUSANDS of years and any leakage during that period would be an environmental disaster on a scale rarely seen. Neither renewables of even fossil fuels have such a negative after effect.

    Premier Icon gobuchul
    Free Member

    TJ- nobody is saying that you cannot produce electricity from tidal power. Of course you can.

    The current situation is that it’s not ready to be scaled up yet. Further work, in all aspects of the engineering and operation is required to make it feasible. There is absolutely no economic or environmental benefit from installing a bunch of kit that doesn’t work properly and you spend the next 10 years fixing it before you rip it out and replace with a proven working system.

    It would be like trying to drill for oil West of Shetland with 1970s kit.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Full Member

    the best estimate is we have 40 years worth at current consumption

    So I googled that, and the first hit was from Scientific America…

    According to the NEA, identified uranium resources total 5.5 million metric tons, and an additional 10.5 million metric tons remain undiscovered—a roughly 230-year supply at today’s consumption rate in total. Further exploration and improvements in extraction technology are likely to at least double this estimate over time.

    Premier Icon gonefishin
    Free Member

    TJ read my previous post regarding UK electrical demand for 1Q 2020. The 1GW that is the best estimate from an actual expert is the only figure that you have references. That number represents around 2.8% of the UKs total UK ELECTRICITY demand. You then state that the sound of Islay is about the same. you haven’t included any sort of source for that number. You then added “other sites” and then magically say that you’ve got to 20%. You’ve demonstrated 2.8% and then made up numbers to get to 20%.

    yes – and that 1gw is 2- 3 % of the UK consumption is it not? Add in the same from sound of islay, add in the other sites and 20% is not far off. that estimate orf 1 GW while it looks robust is the lowest I have seen

    The other point you have misrepresented are as follows

    shortage of nuclear fuel? we will find more.

    I never said that. I said that nuclear fuel was like every other raw material that we would have to go looking for just like oil, lithium, coal or any other rare earth metal. I never said it was an infinite resource that was out there to be discovered.

    No solution to waste – tech will provide

    The solution is encasement and storage based on the actual risk associated with how hazardous the material actually is. This is existing technology that need political will and long term options to deal with. It is far from a perfect solution I agree but that doesn’t make it unworkable.

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