Sorry chipps I was aiming this mainly at mbuk and mbr that I followed up with another comment in my next post. I should have been clearer.

I could have been clearer by saying **** DIRT magazine which used to be great but suddenly went anorexic with lots of ad content mixed with big blow up pics to avoid having to come up with content/type.

Feel free to continue publishing growing beards and roam obscure locations in search of adventure! 🙂

Dirt started to publish the ‘new stuff and stories’ online to avoid the out of date before publish problem, and now tends to concentrate on quality pictures and articles that aren’t time sensitive.
Steve Jones sometimes still speaks in tongues mind…………..

toons – Member
Doddy went to Factory jackson

Really? Their most recent article is two months old, I thought they had packed it in.

quality pictures and articles

This is the same Dirt we’re thinking of here that appears to have no concept of sub-editing, or indeed comprehensible English?

Dirt started to publish the ‘new stuff and stories’ online to avoid the out of date before publish problem, and now tends to concentrate on quality pictures and articles that aren’t time sensitive.
Steve Jones sometimes still speaks in tongues mind…………..

Dirt does seem to be focussing more on trips / interviews etc but is still pretty light on content. I think it’d be better without Jonesy (sorry dude but your ramblings are incomprehensible).

I quite like printed mags too (but I still buy CD’s). I’m not really sure what I want out of a bike mag though – MBUK / WMTB / MBR don’t interest me at all but nor does STW. They all review stuff that is way too expensive and I don’t really do big epics / getting lost etc. I’m not rad either…I just ride my bike.

They all review stuff that is way too expensive

Must admit £200+ jacket reviews in every issue are beginning to grate.

Must admit £200+ jacket reviews in every issue are beginning to grate.

I love them – I know which ones to buy when they’re £60 in the sales a few months later then 🙂

The ‘value’ kit award makes me laugh. Surely value would mean DHB, Decathlon etc not min£150 etc.

On a mag front (and despite not riding BMX anymore) I was really sad to see The Albion fold.

Great idea (and one I’ve seen several times stateside too) of a gorgeous free mag, funded entirely by advertisers (which is what funds the majority of most mags anyway). I emailed Tim March after to wish him well and he replied, basically saying that the constant effort to produce the mag had got too much for everyone.

Massive shame as I felt it covered the roots and soul of BMX beautifully.

I’ve read far more of the most recent ST magazine on my tablet than the paper version. Thinking of going digital-only.

I want to read a magazine that reflects a vibrant mountain biking scene dominated by people carping endlessly about stuff they don’t like… I’m thinking WTFMTB as a working title.

We’ll be testing discontinued kit and only items priced at under a tenner at that. The only ads will be kitchen spam. We’ll also be featuring a series of top riders and figures from the industry reminiscing about classic issues of MTB Pro and Maximum Mountain Bike – whatever happened to them?

There won’t be any beards, beer, cake or twaddle. Just good old, down to earth carping about everything and anything.

Coming to a Kickstarter near you soon 😉

I was sad to the The Albion fold too. I only have myself to blame though as I promised that I’d get round to subscribing to it one day and never did. Great interviews in it and some great features – and I’m not even a BMX rider…

As for the digital version of Singletrack, it’s designed by Grace, who is free to use different photos and layout to the print magazine, so not only can it look different, it can often have different (and more) photos in it than in the print magazine, due to the unlimited page sizes of digi mags. I have a couple of digital subs to Outside and Bike, but find I never read the whole thing and always forget where I’d got to.

Reading this thread it looks like there is a tough crowd to please with a print magazine.
a lot of people don’t want print
even more people don’t want to pay for print
even more people don’t want to pay more than a pint & 1/2 for a print (london or north prices, take your pick).

And it must have no ads, arty ads, no reviews, expensive reviews, cheap reviews.

: )

Thankfully we started The Ride Journal with the knowledge that we’d not be making money from it.
As an exercise in seeing if its possible to put together your own magazine and step up instead of just complaining about what else is out there… I think we’ve just about succeeded, but everyone else can make up their own mind (Im sure someone on here once referred to us as “a vanity art project” which we loved).

Independent printing is doing better than it has for many years, niches can be hit and the internet can help you reach people all over the world (rather than meaning the death of print). As others have said, I spend enough time looking at a screen. Settling down with Singletrack, or another cycling magazine is me switching off from that part of the day.

Im looking forward to seeing what Seb does with the new magazine.

Talking if mags is there anything that covers road and cx riding for fun but a bit of race news too. Im not particularly interested in mtb any more tbh id rather see a bit of adventure and routes than enduro

There seems so many titles in the shop i dont know where to start tbh

they get pinch flats…
Who still gets pinch flats on rides these days?

Everyone who has ever tried a non-tubeless Nobby Nic. Within 20m of leaving the nice, smooth tarmac. Possibly before.

I’ve just spotted Jo Burt’s name on the mockup Cranked cover.

Will this mean cartoon sheep action?

Hi,

Thanks for all the comments and feedback.

Just thought I’d clarify a few points and queries:

– sorry, no cartoon sheep 😉
– no gear or bike reviews
– price is not finalised, but it will cost you more than a pint and a half ;p

My aim is to produce a mag that I want to read. Given that I’ve been helping to make bike mags for the last 19 years, that sets the bar reasonably high.

As you were. Updates, for those who are interested, will be available via the mailing list (link in the first post :)), on Twitter and Facebook. And now I think I’d better disappear, lest I be accused of hijacking a thread on a rival mag’s forum (hi Mark, hi Chipps)…

Here’s another vote in favo(u)r of the ‘nice mag.’ There’s something special about heavy paper, a comfy chair, and a lack of digital distractions.

Depending on how shipping Stateside works out, I’m in for at least the first issue.

About time we had a new mag aka privateer style – I’m sure it will work Seb, the Ride is good and I just love the illustrations on the cover along with the stories/tales inside, you’ve got a good thing going there Phil…..and that smell of the ink/paper is heady, a nice tactile size also.

As I mentioned on another thread I find reading on the iPad/tablet to be a chore, it doesn’t feel right to me and whilst I’m happy enough to browse/read a forum without complaint, I find myself avoiding reading my few digital subscriptions to wired/national geographic as I much prefer an old fashioned print copy, a physical mag sits in my hand better and reading a screen no matter how whiz-bang the graphics are just does not do it for me.

About time we had a new mag aka privateer style – I’m sure it will work Seb

This. I felt Privateer had just got into its stride when it closed; got the impression it didn’t fit well into the Rapha/Rouleur empire.

I was the founder (2005) and editor (until my departure in June last year) of Rouleur magazine. Also, I was Editorial director of all of Rouleur’s projects from books to magazines up to that point, Privateer included. I would’t normally enter a forum debate but this one is really interesting and (mostly) informative, so here goes.

Firstly, I need to set a few things straight. Privateer was certainly not closed because of a lack of commitment from the publishers, it had been given plenty of time and support to prosper, and just to stop the Rapha debate once and for all, they were no longer involved with the business when Privateer was closed and actually had very little input into the launch of Privateer in the first place. Rouleur’s input was also minimal, although both magazines shared offices and some resources, like Rouleur, Privateer had its own voice and was fiercely independent. We closed it because it simply couldn’t support itself any longer.

Most ‘sustainable’ magazines support a small team and who certainly do not put in the hard hours just to get rich (I’m sure Chipps and Mark will agree on that one). I always joke ‘if it was easy, everyone would be doing it’ but putting together a magazine is no joke; I’ve put much of my savings, free time and energy into magazines and, although I’ve survived OK, I have hardly made a fortune. Passion for cycling is what motivates all cycling journalists and independent publishers, not financial return. What the non-media people out there may not realise is that magazines are horribly difficult to publish independently and make a ‘living’ from. Those that do are in the minority. Most are happy just to survive. I don’t wish to offend anyone, but who the hell do you think the people that run independent cycling magazines actually are? Bernie Madoff? I mean some of these posts make you think that we are the profiteering horsemen of the apocalypse.

£9 for a magazine (albeit a fat, high quality, smelly-paper one, published in London and with all the overheads that entails, including the inflated cost of a pint of beer) well, it may seem like a lot, but it is about what you need to charge to make the thing float. Just float. Not even move. Advertising means you can do some extra things, but with no kit tested unsurprisingly most mountain bike companies didn’t see the point in advertising (apart from those advertisers who ride and actually ‘got it’).

Distribution via the news stand means you can reach a wider audience faster (but that’s another can of worms and not what it first appears to be) but do you think WH Smith take magazines based on their quality and pithy editorial stance? Do they hell. They take magazines based on how much cash the publishers have to ‘promote’ them. It’s one of those monopolies that magazine readers aren’t aware of – it’s why the biggest publishers get the most shelf space. To be honest, it’s an outrage.

I am sure Seb won’t mind me saying that we have had several long discussions in recent months about his plans and that they come from a frustration in working in the cycling media which has been losing its way for a many years now. The danger is that quality photographers and writers are finding it very hard to make a living or even get anything of any meaning or substance published. A few are leaving the industry and the remainder have to work exceptionally hard just to keep up.

I started out in journalism at a mountain bike magazine in the early 1990s and although my roots are in road riding, mountain biking interested me then because it was less bothered about blazers and clubs and more interested in having fun and inclusion. I still strongly believe that mountain biking needs its independent and maverick voices, because it’s in danger of becoming too homogenised and too establishment. I think the length and depth of this thread shows that there is more than a passing interest in the idea of another ‘grown up’ mountain bike magazine, so all power to that idea.

Closing Privateer was one of the hardest things I have had to do, both personally and professionally. We were overwhelmed by the reaction, it was positive (in that we’d done a good magazine) and supportive (should we wish to try it again). I am pleased that those who worked on it have gone onto bigger and better things and I am also delighted that Seb has now decided to throw himself into the circus ring. I eagerly await issue 1.

Great post.

Loved Privateer. Thought it was actually pretty good VFM. Looking forwards to Cranked.

Thanks for that. It’s always nice when someone who knows what they’re talking about arrives and drops a bomb on speculation.

p.s. Didn’t realise the Albion had gone bust. Gutted.

I now feel sooo bad that I cancelled my subscription to Privateer shortly before it ceased…….only because I was actually struggling for the time and peace and quiet to sit and read it back then. Having retired now, I find myself reading more, tv off, peace and quiet….and in reality if Privateer was out now I would still be subscribing. I’m as guilty as everyone or assuming that everyone involved in the bike industry must be minted based on the price that we pay for everything bike related and it’s really informative to me to have read guyandrews reply.
I will certainly be taking a few copies of Cranked in addition to my digital issue of STW and see how things pan out interest wise.

There’s a similar discussion going on in the running magazine world. After all how many times do people want to read a “Easy way to 5k” story?

Low key success seems to be coming the way of Like The Wind. It’s simply stories about running beautifully laid out with running related art and photography. There’s no reviews or advertising in it.

They selling direct and spreading by word of mouth. I’ve been a subscriber since day one and love it. I’d highly recommend it even if you’re not a runner, and I’d love to see something similar for mtb.

“, but with no kit tested unsurprisingly most mountain bike companies didn’t see the point in advertising “

Don’t get this – surely a mountainbike mag like privateer with its high cover price was attracting well heeled cyclists with a bob or two to spend on flash kit – why would a company not want to hit that demographic. The fact that they will only do so when the ads are accompanied by gushing product tests needs real pushback – clearly the only people able to do this are us the consumer as the mags can’t and stay afloat. Perhaps the only way to ‘pushback’ is to actively avoid buying the stuff that is ‘pushed’ by repeated testing!

“WH Smith take magazines based on their quality and pithy editorial stance? Do they hell. They take magazines based on how much cash the publishers have to ‘promote’ them.”

This is true of pretty much all modern retail but surely a quality mountainbike mag should be exposed much less to this as I would have thought most would be sold in bike shops, trendy Hoxton/Edinburgh/Harrogate cafes, fancy barbers, trail centres, certain clothes shops etc – or do you have to get a whsmith deal to stay afloat? (genuine question)

” I still strongly believe that mountain biking needs its independent and maverick voices, because it’s in danger of becoming too homogenised and too establishment.”

This^ is very true

Very brave to launch print in this digital age, even braver launching into what can best be called a flat mature market, dominated by a few big players and not many of the others with big marketing budgets.

I hadn’t realised Privateer had ceased, I’m not surprised they didn’t exactly do ad ‘deals’ which you kind of have to if you want to survive in the niche market mag Industry, even the likes of mpora have to compromise their rate card.

Imbike have about as successful a formula as you need in these days of pressured margins, but it’s a very tight operation, they work bloody hard and fundamentally they ride because they like to, like most of us, it’s the passion and the business comes second.

I certainly look forward to a new mag, from a reader standpoint. Somebody has just tried the same in Kitesurfing, that’s four mags, in a market that can hardly support the three it’s got, so one of them likely is doomed not to break even but they always set out with intentions of bigger better and hope it’s the other guy who fails.

Well said Guy, I find it hard to reason why some folk complained about the price of Privateer considering the depth and quality of the articles – for the equivalent price of 3 takeaway/throwaway coffees every few months you could buy a magazine (magazine is doing it a great injustice – i prefer journal or book) that gave you hours of thought provoking tales of two wheeled adventures and informed you indepth about the people who ride, just like us, either for pleasure or for sport. Leading up to each new issue dropping through my door i used to look forward and plan to clear an afternoon or a few hours at least to sit down and take time out to read through the articles, they were a salve for times when i could not get out and ride as much as i’d like to for whatever reason.

I’m so keen to see what Seb has in store for issue 1, can’t wait!.

I’ve still got all my Privateers lined up in order, along with The Ride, and of course Singletrack, but my shelf isn’t large enough to hold all my Singletracks so i may have to put up another as they are languishing in the cupboard.

But my issue 1 of Privateer is rather damaged due to an incursion into the bath so if anyone has issue 1 in good condition that they’d be willing to part with then get in touch and name a sensible price 😉

I think I’ll always have a soft spot for print mags, especially mtb ones. The comparisons between vinyl and digital are probably cliched, but resonate a lot with me. I’ve been sat reading this forum on my laptop for about an hour, during which time I’ve had email and other notifications from work coming in left and right, reminding me of the day to day grind that I read bike stuff to forget about.

Contrast this to reading the latest mag last night, which is words and imagery composed by a human to sit together just so, in a medium that can’t be disrupted.

So in my view print is always superior in doing (for me) what bike media should – providing the best substitute for being out there and doing it yourself.

All this being said, I am quite enjoying the camper van threads on here recently and also laughed at the 4 wet blokes getting pinch flats thing 🙂

Thanks for all the comments (and thanks particularly to Guy for stepping in and explaining some of the background).

The mainstream is voting with their trackpads and tablets and deserting print for online (that’s a sweeping generalisation, but you get the gist). There are some things that online can’t do, and that’s where Cranked comes in. It’s an opportunity 🙂

Any ideas on when it’s due to hit the shelves, Seb?

Very much looking forward to cranked. I thought privateer was great for a number of reasons so if this is going to be produced in the same style but in a manner that is sustainable for the long term then it could be right up my street.

Online is great for many things but there are also a number of places where it falls very short.

“, but with no kit tested unsurprisingly most mountain bike companies didn’t see the point in advertising “

Don’t get this – surely a mountainbike mag like privateer with its high cover price was attracting well heeled cyclists with a bob or two to spend on flash kit – why would a company not want to hit that demographic. The fact that they will only do so when the ads are accompanied by gushing product tests needs real pushback – clearly the only people able to do this are us the consumer as the mags can’t and stay afloat. Perhaps the only way to ‘pushback’ is to actively avoid buying the stuff that is ‘pushed’ by repeated testing!

I think you’ve answered your own question there! Some of the less progressive distributors in the bike trade see product testing as a double whammy, they just want to see pictures of their stuff in mags. If products were tested honestly I think the mags wouldn’t get a lot of advertising.

The price of magazines is always an interesting discussion. I think they are worth more [but I would] however many of the readers disagree. I ask you this though: if a magazine cost £5 ten years ago and still does, when should it go up? ever? never?

Advertising is definitely going backwards in paper mags, so someone has to pay the print bill, so why not the readers? If you don’t want to pay a high cover price, I’m afraid you’ll end up with a poor magazine, that’s just basic economics.

“WH Smith take magazines based on their quality and pithy editorial stance? Do they hell. They take magazines based on how much cash the publishers have to ‘promote’ them.”
This is true of pretty much all modern retail but surely a quality mountainbike mag should be exposed much less to this as I would have thought most would be sold in bike shops, trendy Hoxton/Edinburgh/Harrogate cafes, fancy barbers, trail centres, certain clothes shops etc – or do you have to get a whsmith deal to stay afloat? (genuine question)

A personal bug-bear of mine and I could write a book about the ins and outs of magazine retail. The problem isn’t all WH Smith though, the mag distributors need to be held to account as they aren’t really bothered about the quality and care that is taken in putting a magazine together – they just want numbers and cash. They don’t take on magazines because they are good, they take them on to make money, so they could be selling paper clips.

To answer your question with another though, why do you think that the magazines are so poor? Why do you think they are mostly about celebrity gossip, cars and flat screen TVs? The attitude of most publishers is this is the stuff that sells advertising and what [most] people want to buy. As a result the buying public end up with the magazines they deserve. Sorry if that sounds opinionated, but it’s the truth.

I long for a distributor for independent magazines, that uses imaginative and progressive routes to retail. There are some independent sales teams, but a one stop shop for the best titles would be a good idea. The big problem is with most margins on magazines being so small, there’s not enough in the pot to make it worthwhile. Back to price again then, I’m afraid.

If products were tested honestly I think the mags wouldn’t get a lot of advertising.

I think this issue was the beginning of the whole GamerGate thing (before it degenerated in a misogynistic ‘witch’ hunt) – the relation ship between those publishing tests and those providing the products is too close. The number of products that you see trailed with ‘we’ve just had this product in – more when we’ve tested it’ that never appear again (presumably because it’s easier not to print a bad review than print and accept the fall out).

I love product reviews and I think all of the people writing them are working hard to provide the best reviews they can within the framework that the publisher sets.

The whole row over Steve Worlands review being pulled by WhatMTB’s publisher as the company supplying the product didn’t advertise in the mag was an indaction of how it works.

I liked Privateer and I hope that Cranked meets and then exceeds the standard it set. I think the main thing is to give it a few issues to find it’s feet – too many people wrote Privateer off after the first issue when, in fact, it improved with every issue.

Any ideas on when it’s due to hit the shelves, Seb?

If you follow the link in the first post on the first page, there’s a countdown timer to launch 😉

Virtual shelves, though. You need to buy online (single copies and subs both available). Delivered to your door, wherever you are.

I love product reviews and I think all of the people writing them are working hard to provide the best reviews they can within the framework that the publisher sets.

^^ This. The problem is that the framework has shifted over the years. In simple terms, there’s huge pressure to review more products, more quickly. Throw in declining editorial budgets and you can draw your own conclusions about the overall quality of reviews out there (though there are plenty of honourable exceptions – a great deal comes down to the experience of the individual reviewer).

Cranked’s lack of product reviews has raised some industry eyebrows, but I won’t sacrifice quality just to keep a few (potential) advertisers happy. That’s not to say there isn’t a way of doing reviews that’s worthwhile, just that it doesn’t feature in Cranked’s immediate future.

I feel a bit bad now for my off hand comment regarding the price of Privateer. I wasn’t trying to suggest for a moment that it wasn’t worth the money. It was Totally worth it, and every time I bought one, I enjoyed it, but I didn’t subscribe (my fault, just never got round to it) and the times I did find it in WH smiths it was mostly with a book in one hand…comparing the price of those two meant that Privateer often came second choice to a paperback.

I’m very much looking forward to Cranked. There is a gap in the market for another quality magazine led by editorial content, long may that continue*

* I know, I’ll subscribe, I’ll move first, then get my ducks in a row, promise

Good luck!

I still strongly believe that mountain biking needs its independent and maverick voices

Absolutely. Who was that opinionated american chap who used to do a slot in ST?
He was excellent, when he left it was one less reason to buy the mag for me.

Who was that opinionated american chap who used to do a slot in ST?
He was excellent…

I think you’re gesturing towards Ferrentino- who I would also love to hear more from. He’s still doing “The Grimy Handshake” for BIKE in the States, FWIW.

On Kickstarter now – https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/287125002/cranked-a-magazine-for-mountain-bikers – and it’s nearly hit it’s initial goal. Get in quick if you want a discounted year’s sub!

First issue in May. Backed, really looking forward to it.

Christ that was quick to raise it’s goal, i backed it earlier and there was still £1000’s to go.

That should hopefully show there is a viable readership.