I work at a shop and we have yet to sell a 650b. 29 is still selling, 26 less so, but not a single 650b. Rider demand eh?? Like many of the comments above, it’s not the wheel size everyone hates, it’s the industry attitude of “here’s a plate of bulls**t, now eat it up!” and expecting everyone to believe that their new mousetrap is THE BESTEST EVAR! buy one, and line their pockets with money. Last time i saw an idea forced on mtb like this was Shimano’s dual control/rapid rise fiasco, and we all know how that one turned out… [END RANT]

Is there a bike porn industry? We need to ask them? Where’s RonJeremy when you need him?

So will this standard migrate to Fat bikes too

and should folks be stockpiling 26 inch tyres with a view to them increasing in value as the bikeshops run out

Or is it a storm in an inner tube and nowt to worry about

Is there a bike porn industry? We need to ask them? Where’s RonJeremy when you need him?

In the bike shop on a shoot?

The thing about the mtb industry is that it seems to be trying very hard to create the apperance of innovation without actually innovating

Why all the time and energy spent changing axle sizes, headset sizes, handlebar clamp sizes, bottom brackets, and wheel sizes for marginal (or quite possibly no) gains and yet you leave a fairly important drivetrain component unchanged from the system that’s been used for the last 100 years?

Could it be that designing a half decent gearbox bike is actually a bit difficult and might require some actual R&D costs when the far cheaper option is to change a dimension or two and proclaim this latest innovation the second coming?

and yet you leave a fairly important drivetrain component unchanged from the system that’s been used for the last 100 years?

money in it eh snapping and replacing all the time.

Like many others who have posted on this thread i wished to express my feelings on the great “2013 : 650B” debate as i ride 26″, and have no desire to go that little bit faster or roll over stuff easier – i ride bikes coz i enjoy getting out in the hills and taking in the views, seeing new places, discovering new trails etc.

As i try and formulate a suitable witty and concise response i feel my brain cells withering and dying, by merely typing what i have so far i fear that on my deathbed i’ll rue the day i wasted 5 mins of my life attempting to state my opinion on a **** web forum of all places, so here’s a summery of how i feel about the perceived manufacturer led 650b onslaught (from a bike shop mechanics perspective). for me it boils down to “New wheel format? – Lets sell em’ more shit”

People buying niche brand frames and transplanting their components, or replacing bits when they wear out, is really bad for the people who sell complete bikes.

It’s a small part of the market – I don’t think it’s a motivator here.

Could it be that designing a half decent gearbox bike is actually a bit difficult and might require some actual R&D costs when the far cheaper option is to change a dimension or two and proclaim this latest innovation the second coming?

What and right off sales of mechs?

I’m sticking with 700c for all of my bikes.

simondbarnes – Member

I’m sticking with 700c for all of my bikes.

Go on then, post up a picture of your Brompton. 🙂

Could it be that designing a half decent gearbox bike is actually a bit difficult and might require some actual R&D costs when the far cheaper option is to change a dimension or two and proclaim this latest innovation the second coming?

no its because the four people that might just want one are insignificant (on top of them being shite) and riding round the city on a brompton with a reliable gear hub is a market share worth going for

ffs you think a company with a budget like honda threw the towel on because it was a bit hard?

Well, I like my 650B hardtail. Rode it to top ten at Hadleigh Farm today. Works for me!

ffs you think a company with a budget like honda threw the towel on because it was a bit hard?

Honda didn’t throw in the towel on gearboxes, they threw the towel in on mountain biking.

They came into mountain biking and designed a bike from first principles rather than trying to adapt a safety bicycle to the task, hence they ended up using a gearbox since it’s the obvious solution if you hadn’t been brainwashed to accept traditional bike constrution as the only way to go.

It’s a real shame that Honda quit. They were the only ones really trying to advance bicycle design. Possibly they realised that there were already too many companies changing the dimensions of various components from the standard and calling this a game changer. With BS such as changing from 26 to 650b being touted as a worthwhile endevour you can see why they might be worried that a genuine change would get lost in all the noise.

http://www.eurobike-show.com/eb-en/

Go every year or I send one of my employees
Spoke to Gary Fisher there last year who stated that 26″ is dead
We shall see

Those that like the 650b great 8)

stated that 26″ is dead

Not if we don’t want it to be. Remember, there’s no money in it if customers don’t want to buy it. And we’re all feeling a bit skint right now in case you hadn’t noticed?

The whole 650B thing stinks of bullying, and that’s what I think is riling so many people. You should take account of that if you want your business to survive…

there’s a whole lot of companies over the years that have failed because they forgot the fundamental rule that the money comes in from giving customers want they want to buy… you’re heading for a Ratners moment if you carry on with such an arrogant attitude

Here’s Brenden Fairclough’s Downhill gearbox bike at the fort bill world champs 2007, the execution of the design maybe left something to be desired but on a “go-on, let us have a quick shot” blag i thought it it was bloody good.

Ok, the project was shelved but we need daft ideas like this rather than the entire industry clubbing together to push wheels sizes as the saviour of mtb’s

That would be the Gary Fisher employed by the Trek Bicycle Corporation?

Or a different wierdy beardy old fella with the dress sense of a clown wheeled out whenever they need to lend some old school legitimacy to their big new “Ideas”?

FFS just give it up… Please.

Spoke to Gary Fisher there last year who stated that 26″ is dead
We shall see

That doesn’t mean bugger-all i’m afraid…..
I’ve shared a big fat Northern Lights joint wi Gary Fisher and talked shite for ages whilst discussing the finer merits of a two skinner joint vs using three papers vs using blunts , he’s immensenly entertaining as a person and i’d have him as a dinner guest every night of the week for his passion and love for mtb’ing but as for his belief that 26″ is dead?……I’d love to have that argument wi him over a few J’s……….

or the same Gary fisher that proclaimed he always wanted to use 29″ wheels but couldn’t find anyone to manufacture tyres for them for 30 years 🙄

no doubt trek will wheel the old fart again to try and push 650b.

It was the legend yes

I don’t think that bikeind is really grasping what most folks here are saying.

It’s not the wheel size itself that being objected to, it’s the industry’s approach to it. I think this sums it up quite nicely –

The whole 650B thing stinks of bullying, and that’s what I think is riling so many people.

So, 26″ wheels, the most common size of wheel on the planet, used in their millions all over Asia as a main method of transport. These are going to be phased out, because an eldery mountain bike icon said 2cm bigger would be better?

Seems like a stupid time to jump ship. CRC have:

240x 26″ wheelsets, 19x 650b wheels.
276x 26″ tyres, 18x 650b tyres.
124x 26″ forks, 7x 650b forks.

Enjoy paying top prices for essentially the same product.

So, 26″ wheels, the most common size of wheel on the planet, used in their millions all over Asia as a main method of transport. These are going to be phased out, because an eldery mountain bike icon said so?

And this is a valid point – touring bikes will save you : ) tourers won’t be moving to en-mass to 650B, ever, so you’ll be able to get 17-19mm internal width 26″ rims for a while yet. Many will be rim-brake versions but tourers also have discs.

CRC have

Allegedly annoyed a lot of distributors so don’t have the range of new stock they once did?

Not defending 650B which I think is marketing-driven, but CRC maybe not the best place for comparison of what’s available.

Actually, on a similar note to above.

CRC still have MORE square taper BBs, than they have PF30 + BB30 bottom brackets added together, regardless of the fact no one has made square taper chainsets in about 5-6 years?

Do they? I’d better stock up!

I’ve not owned a 29 or 650 yet. Maybe in 5yrs time when I have a midlife crisis. Yesterday I saw 3 middled aged blokes fullykitted out for the mountins on their 29’ers….in Manchester.

fullykitted out for the mountins on their 29’ers….in Manchester.

Shocking. I saw some guys on MTBs in London once. Dunno about the wheel size. Maybe they were heading out of town, maybe to a station to get a train to somewhere to ride. Even done that myself a few times.

They were on Manchester trails not heading to the Surrey Alps

so, can you buy a high end 26″ wheeled HT in 2014? or is there a limited choice?

Maybe they were passing through manchester on a few-day ride taking in the Peak dist and a few other spots? All I’m saying is, who cares what they were doing/riding/etc )

Wrongside of Manchester but 29ers are the preserve of the middle aged crisis-types.

Prob see the odd young rider but for the main its middled-aged types agonising over their riding/life.

Well, I picked up the new 650b Sight on Saturday and took it round Penmachno in the afternoon and down Snowdon early on Sunday. First thoughts are that it is a very nice bike. Climbs well, descends superbly, handles the tight, fast, gnarly singletrack of Penmachno just fine and coped with everything Snowdon could throw at it without any issues. Did the 650 wheels make a tangible difference? Hard to say, particularly given I’ve traded to more travel and slacker angles than my other bike (Turner Flux). I’ve never ridden Snowdon before, so can’t make a valid comparison, but I have been to Penmachno a few times and it certainly felt a bit more flowy, like the wheels were able to glide a bit more over the rocks/ruts.

Was it faster? – Again, hard to say. It was my first time back on a bike since a pretty harsh otb on the Edale loop a couple of weeks ago, so I was probably a bit more tentative than would otherwise have been the case, but it felt like it flowed really well and I I certainly feel that the geometry and riding position were better for me as an XL rider, in that I didn’t feel quite so perched above the wheels.

Will it catch on/is it the right thing?
No idea! But I’ve previously stated that to me it seems crazy to have the same wheel sizes for radically different sized frames/riders. Bigger wheels certainly seem to sit better with the size of frames that I ride, maybe that’s the future, wheelsize defined by the size of the rider.
As an afterthought, the FS mountain bike industry has only really been around for 20 odd years. That’s a very small amount of time in the bigger picture and certainly a small one to decide on one standard and say this is the perfect one for time immemorial. I would have thought it would take longer than that for all permutations to be worked through sufficiently for the optimum size to be defined. As I understand it, 26″ became default because mountain bikes were “invented” in the states and 26″ wheels were what the clunkers that they used to to barrel down mountains took. If they’d been invented in France (though the French probably claim that they were 😉 ) then the European standard 29″ would probably have prevailed. Seems a pretty hit and miss way of deciding upon the best wheel size to me. And in fairness, to those above who see him as nothing more than a willing mouthpiece for Trek, I believe that Mr Fisher was expounding the benefits of larger wheels long before Fisher was bought by Trek.

Anyway, I’m happy with the bike and the wheels seem to work well with the larger frame and whilst I agree that the marketing/hype around 650b has been a little excessive, at the end of the day it’s horses for courses and we should all just get out there and ride 🙂

As I understand it, 26″ became default because mountain bikes were “invented” in the states and 26″ wheels were what the clunkers that they used to to barrel down mountains took. If they’d been invented in France (though the French probably claim that they were ) then the European standard 29″ would probably have prevailed.

Or 650B could have prevailed since it was the go-to size for 50’s french rough-road randonneur bikes with fatter tyres and there were off-roaders in france pre marin county.

I once invested in Sony Mini Disc HiFi stuff thinking to myself (young and naive) that how could it possibly not take off? My Dad warned me about it being new. I didn’t really have the intelligence or forward thinking about the future as had never experienced anything like it (too young to really take in the betamax thing except to see it and think it was “cool”). It’s when you start spending your own money on things that you wake up and think…arr….that wasn’t such a good idea. I lost a fair amount of money on that.

Fast forward to Bluray vs HD DVD. I was happy to watch it play out. I would not invest in a format that would die. I predicted HD DVD would win and watched some of my friends spend hundreds on HD DVD players, HD DVD and even new TVs. Then it failed and was dropped. People lost money. But not as many…

These days people are more clued up. They research purchases more since they have less disposable income. People read reviews and experiences. People want value. Markets are competitive. People are happy to sit tight and watch what happens.

When a new “standard” comes out, it is much more scrutinized these days. People are less susceptible to marketing. When new “standards” come out which can change the value of currently owned possessions, people often will meet these standards with (and rightly so) questions and doubt. It is only natural. I think we as consumers have become more immune to these so called “standards” and are beginning to become tougher in our acceptance of them. We are starting to see the true colours of companies and how these “standards” are really just disguised profit.

If a genuinely good product comes out and it is innovative, then fine. But re-inveting the wheel (quite literally) is going to be met with criticism, since it just so happens so warrant a whole new bike.

This seems like as good a place as any to also have a mini rant generally about new bike prices. There is no way new bikes are worth their price tags a lot of the time. I walked past a shop window the other day and saw an all mountain bike in there which whilst more modern and probably better than mine, I don’t think it is £3000 better than mine. I mean really, who can afford a £3699 bike that’s essentially a toy? I’ve not owned a car worth more than that.

I mean really, who can afford a £3699 bike that’s essentially a toy? I’ve not owned a car worth more than that.

What’s your name? Vladimir Lenin? 😉

The OP and others pushing 650B should read the post from coursemyhorse – some very sensible insight there…
We’re all watching the pennies more than we used to, and far far better at educating ourselves. Not just about bikes, but allsorts.

I think the OP and bike industry have misjudged this one badly.
Not the introduction of a new wheelsize, I think the argument about choice and diff wheels for different sizes of rider is fair enough… but the threat of refusing to support the massive installed base will, I think turn out to be a New Coke/DCC/Minidisc scenario.

I agree on bike prices. I’ve never bought a whole/new bike.

Agree with a lot of the comments re bike prices. Ironically my recent purchase was the first time I’ve bought a mountain bike as a complete bike since I bought a Cannondale hardtail back in 2006. Usually I’d buy a frame or a 2nd hand (though the market for XL frames/bikes is tiny). It was in the sales though and the price was so good I figured buy it, ride it and upgrade it as and when as it’s an excellent platform. In truth I decided that I needed more travel for the riding I’m increasingly doing and an upcoming trip to the Alps next week focused my mind. Although the price of the bike was good value, once I’ve upgraded the wheels, fork, groupset and finishing kit it will end up at the 2.5k – 3k mark depending on how much of the right stuff I can get secondhand. Still, it’s cheaper than sports cars or motorbikes as a hobby and as long as I can stay rubber side down, healthier as well.. 😀