Interestingly (after an earlier post), The Times today mentioned the comparative numbers of players in England and Scotland after John Beattie said that there are as many refs registered in England as players in Scotland.

In fact Scotland has 32,817 registered players compared to 38,019 registered refs in England.

England has 66 times more senior players than Scotland according to the article.

Looking at the IRB website :

England Number Of Clubs:
1900
Number Of Registered Players:
2146140
Number of Referees:
38019
Pre-teen Male Players:
192882
Teen Male Player:
1218138
Senior Male Player:
705272
Total Male Player:
2116292

Scotland:
Number Of Clubs:
241
Number Of Registered Players:
32817
Number of Referees:
343
Pre-teen Male Players:
7556
Teen Male Player:
13402
Senior Male Player:
10556
Total Male Player:
31514

Ireland:
Number Of Clubs:
207
Number Of Registered Players:
152830
Number of Referees:
420
Pre-teen Male Players:
60600
Teen Male Player:
57700
Senior Male Player:
21939
Total Male Player:
140239

Wales:
Number Of Clubs:
325
Number Of Registered Players:
46324
Number of Referees:
1779
Pre-teen Male Players:
10000
Teen Male Player:
13689
Senior Male Player:
21196
Total Male Player:
44885

This proves nothing at all, of course, but it is interesting when thnking of player base numbers.

Japan for comparison:

Number Of Clubs:
3620
Number Of Registered Players:
122598
Number of Referees:
4484

I agree, El Vino, Gatland doesn't seem to be the problem. (Although he desperately needs a good forwards coach to sort out the setpieces!)

My own opinion is that the most basic problem is that we have no players.

4 professional teams, one of which is rarely competitive, and they are all filled with SH imports. As soon as a player in almost any position is injured or retires then we have nobody to fall back on.

Even the galacticos of the Ospreys have to resort to players of the very low calibre of Johnny Vaughton, etc, and have had to cancel a game this week because they can't field a front row. That is disgraceful for a so-called professional team.

Kinda fascinated by this too. In games where their scrum in creaking, they still win nearly all their own line out and are continually either stealing ball (which is great) or at least disrupting and causing the opposition to get messy ball on theirs.

Surely though, they're not just chucking in the towel wrt the scrum are they? Would a side do that? There's nothing to quieten a home crowd like the away team dominating the scrum (as well as the psychological damage to the opposition's forwards). Not disagreeing with you EV, just thinking aloud..

The Bull was never a great scrummager anyway, but he's really well past it (was very very pleased that he got the hundred caps and led the team out though. A special moment for a fellow Limerickman). Healy doesn't look like he's going to be world class and as El Vino says, buckley doesn't look like any other front line will be shitting themselves when he walks on to the pitch.

So maybe we're just short of a really good front line at the moment? Hopefully something improves because, I'm worried about 2011 already.

absolutely correct;

New Zealand
Number Of Clubs:
595
Number Of Registered Players:
145293

Considering that the game was invented in England, there will always be more players. It doesn't mean they're any good! (I'm probably included in that stat!)

Don't be daft. It's cos there are more people in England.

I bet Wales has more players per hed of population.

300 odd refs in Scotland? Time my travel ex's/free kit allowance was going up! Those were good stats about player numbers.I would be interested in any comments about how many players are coming through.In Scotland rugby in state schools is dead on it's arse.When I was at school 25 years ago in Dundee there were 8 state schools playing rugby,now there are 2,and even they field at most 2xv's.I notice a lot more 40-somethings playing first team at the lower levels. District league teams also strugglwe to field 2xv's.

Ireland have plenty of better scrummagers than Buckley, Tom Court, Mike Ross to name two, neither are destructive however so unless you have someone of the quality of say Euan Murray the refereeing of the scrum is so bad you might as well concentrate on the Line out. This strategy only comes unstuck against the very best teams of which there is only one in this years 6Ns – France.

That's a very conservative team. Obviously Gatland MUST win this game.

Why Shanklin AND Bishop on the bench though? Just hope that Steve Jones and Hook aren't both injured…

Warburton looks very promising 🙂

How is that a conservative team?

Just thinking about the conversation on ScrumV about whether Gats would pick many young players. He can't, for obvious reasons, so h'e picked the team we'd expect.

I disagree about Peel – he's been rubbish for a long time, living on his reputation. Not fast enough these days, his pass isn't as accurate as Rees's, and he has a terrible tendency to kick the ball straight to the opposition backs. There are much better 9s coming through the system thankfully.

Whatever TJ, hope you enjoy biting on the wooden spoon. 😆
I didn't see a lesson in back row play, the english players were quiet and beattie was OK. Brown doesn't impress me at all. What's the way forward for scotland? They're losing (or drawing) all of their games and Duckman has said that the game is barely played in schools. Time for investment and more game than hoping for driving rain?
I am coming to the realisation that England won't play attractive threatening rugby under MJ, who neither selects the type of players needed nor the tactics. I'm a massive fan of his but maybe his future is as a forwards coach?

I watched it alright. I saw little fast unloading and 0 line breaks from either side. As I said, there was no lesson in back row play. I should know I've played there for 21 years. I concede that the scots back row played the better rugby but it was far from a lesson.
The scots seem to be chalking this as a victory when the facts are that they didn't win the calcutta cup and they still face the wooden spoon.

I'm going to be conflicted this weekend!

I don't want France to win another GS and of course would prefer to see Ireland win the championship (which is almost impossible?), but is it possible for me to actually support England? Physically possible? Damage may be done to my central nervous system if I start shouting things like " C',mon Easter, pass to Hartley. Yes a sidestep, show the world your skills, Borthwick!"

But anyway, come on Wales, Ireland and England. Damn, it's difficult.

Also a game which could easily have gone englands way.
Someone has had to defend england from the chipiness of some of the members but I have suffered some head trauma along the way, yes. The ramblings have generally come from certain members babbling on about how good their team is despite being beaten by pretty much everybody while simultaneously slating england!

Indeed. I am not sure either team deserved to win tho

God I wish the perma tanned prima donna would return, Roberts needs someone to create space for him.

Allez les Bleus I say and lets see 50 points on the saes 😆

Wilkinson dropped? I am astounded. Looks a more balanced adn dangerous side to me. Fluty must be lucky tho – he has done nowt that I have seen

Ben Foden (Northampton)
; Mark Cueto (Sale),
Mike Tindall (Gloucester),
Riki Flutey (Brive),
Chris Ashton (Northampton);
Toby Flood (Leicester),
Danny Care (Harlequins);
Tim Payne (Wasps),
Dylan Hartley (Northampton),
Dan Cole (Leicester),
Simon Shaw (Wasps),
Steve Borthwick (Saracens, capt),
Joe Worsley (Wasps),
Lewis Moody (Leicester),
Nick Easter (Harlequins).
Replacements: Steve Thompson (Brive),
David Wilson (Bath),
Louis Deacon (Leicester),
James Haskell (Stade Francais),
Ben Youngs (Leicester),
Jonny Wilkinson (Toulon),
Mathew Tait (Sale).