4 cyclists killed in 8 day in London

Home Forum Bike Forum 4 cyclists killed in 8 day in London

Viewing 45 posts - 1 through 45 (of 143 total)
  • 4 cyclists killed in 8 day in London
  • scu98rkr
    Member

    http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/541200/fourth-cyclist-in-eight-days-dies-on-london-roads.html

    At least 3 other have been ran over in that time to but survived.

    Also like half the deaths have been from truck and half of them from tipper trucks pretty obvious the current design of trucks is unsuitable for mixing with cyclists.

    So they either need to be banned from mixing with cyclists or completely redesigned.

    johnners
    Member

    So they either need to be banned from mixing with cyclists or completely redesigned.

    That’s somewhat extreme – I’d think a bit of driver and rider education probably wouldn’t go amiss.

    bencooper
    Member

    Low cab trucks exist.

    If tanks were being driven around the city, crushing car drivers, of course something would be done.

    scu98rkr
    Member

    That’s somewhat extreme – I’d think a bit of driver and rider education probably wouldn’t go amiss

    That exactly what the CTC have been saying for the last 70 years where has it got us no where. Cycling number have been dropping and dropping and now they’ve picked up in London 4 people killed in 8 days.

    Also the driver stopped and theres no suggestion either him or the cyclist where at fault, add it that people make mistakes. In which case how do u stop this other than redesigning the trucks ?

    mrmo
    Member

    I appreciate my view may be unpopular, but here goes anyway…

    I am a regular long-term cycle commuter. Every day I observe cyclists pull out of side roads without looking, change lanes without looking or indicating, and they ride up the nearside of vehicles when the vehicle is indicating to turn left (FFS! what has a lorry driver got to do? They indicate, they have audible warning, and yet idiots STILL try to pass on the nearside).

    People ride along with earphones in, completely oblivious to what’s going on around them, distracted by whatever they are listening to and cut off from their surroundings. Crazy.

    They fiddle around with whatever’s in their front basket, wear clothes that flap and catch, and shoes that can slip off the pedals. Worse, they ride along in the gutter where they can’t be seen. Ye Gods!

    Further, every cyclist who jumps a red light simply hardens the attitude of motorists against us. Swerving round pedestrians on crossings doesn’t help us either.

    It is very very sad when someone gets killed, however, the way some people ride my only surprise is that there are not many more fatalities.

    It is true that vehicles have a duty of care towards more vulnerable road users, however, vulnerable road users also have a duty – to behave in a reasonable and responsible manner and to mitigate their damage/losses.

    Flame away!

    rewski
    Member

    I feel a protest coming on

    I appreciate my view may be unpopular, but here goes anyway…

    I am a regular long-term cycle commuter. Every day I observe cyclists pull out of side roads without looking, change lanes without looking or indicating, and they ride up the nearside of vehicles when the vehicle is indicating to turn left (FFS! what has a lorry driver got to do? They indicate, they have audible warning, and yet idiots STILL try to pass on the nearside).

    People ride along with earphones in, completely oblivious to what’s going on around them, distracted by whatever they are listening to and cut off from their surroundings. Crazy.

    They fiddle around with whatever’s in their front basket, wear clothes that flap and catch, and shoes that can slip off the pedals. Worse, they ride along in the gutter where they can’t be seen. Ye Gods!

    Further, every cyclist who jumps a red light simply hardens the attitude of motorists against us. Swerving round pedestrians on crossings doesn’t help us either.

    It is very very sad when someone gets killed, however, the way some people ride my only surprise is that there are not many more fatalities.

    It is true that vehicles have a duty of care towards more vulnerable road users, however, vulnerable road users also have a duty – to behave in a reasonable and responsible manner and to mitigate their damage/losses.

    Hear, hear!

    scu98rkr
    Member

    2010: 10 deaths, 4 involved HGVs
    2011: 16 deaths, 12 involved HGVs
    2012: 14 deaths, 5 involved HGVs
    2013: 12 deaths, 8 involved HGVs

    source

    bencooper
    Member

    Flame away!

    Okay. There’s no evidence that the cyclists killed were doing any of those things, and to suggest that the cyclists were at fault when there’s no evidence is offensive to them and their families.

    Ben, equally to automatically suggest that the cyclists drivers were at fault when there’s no evidence is offensive to them and their families.

    Everyone on the roads needs to take more care.

    lightman
    Member

    I agree with what Karin has said, apart from the stupid earphone comment. You are basically saying that deaf people shouldn’t be allowed to cycle!
    People are going to be/act stupid with or without earphones in.

    There are a lot of bad cyclists out there and there are a lot of bad drivers, but its always going to be the driver that ends up winning in any accident.

    As cyclists, we need to be aware of what is going on around us at all times, not just when we are about to make a manoeuvre.

    LHS
    Member

    I agree with a lot of the points above, I commute regularly in London via car and everyday I see so many illegal and dangerous moves by cyclists that I can’t help think why more aren’t killed each day.

    There are bad motorists and bad cyclists and in my personal view, standards in both are getting a lot worse.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    there are bad cyclists but the earphone comment is just stupid!

    Premier Icon bearnecessities
    Subscriber

    apart from the stupid earphone comment. You are basically saying that deaf people shouldn’t be allowed to cycle!

    …and here we go.

    mrmo
    Member

    Ben, equally to automatically suggest that the cyclists drivers were at fault when there’s no evidence is offensive to them and their families.

    Most studies point the finger at blame massively towards drivers. SO to say it is probably drivers that caused these accidents is a reasonable first suspicion.

    The reality is that we all know cyclists are red light jumping, lycra wearing, vegan, anarchists and get what they deserve!!!!

    Premier Icon zippykona
    Subscriber

    One of the motorbike mags used to analyse accidents and come up with ways (if any) to prevent them. Might be an interesting exercise to do on here.
    We assume that most cyclists are enthusiasts like us.
    They are just as likely to be the idiot with no lights, riding no hands on the pavement who then swerves onto road like the person I encountered last night.

    I have just come out of a very interesting meeting with the CTC, discussing their Road Justice Campaign

    Well worth a read – and a sign of the petition, calling for all police forces to take investigation of all collisions seriously. It also calls for more appropriate sentencing and clearer definitions of careless as opposed to dangerous driving.

    Investigating incidents properly and identifying the cause will invariably show it is not always the drivers at fault – but in doing so will hopefully highlight the need for better rider training.

    One thing i hadn’t realised is that victims of careless driving do not come under the victims support code and irrespective of overall physical injury are not entitled to have details of their case or be kept up to date with any proceedings.

    One chap asked to find out why his case wasn’t being continued as all he has was a letter stating the CPS weren’t going to run with it – he eventually found out he could get the information – when he paid £84 for it!

    Things need to change – and hopefully people will see this is a campaign to get a fairer system for everyone

    LHS
    Member

    Most studies point the finger at blame massively towards drivers

    Source?

    mrmo
    Member

    I agree with a lot of the points above, I commute regularly in London via car and everyday I see so many illegal and dangerous moves by cyclists that I can’t help think why more aren’t killed each day.

    There are bad motorists and bad cyclists and in my personal view, standards in both are getting a lot worse.

    everytime i drive in London i am shocked by the standard of driving, it seems the rules are optional for ALL ROAD USERS! I spend a lot of time cycling the roads of the cotswolds and devon, and it is the London plated cars that are the worst…. make of that what you will.

    creedy
    Member

    I posted regards this on the other thread.
    i see all that karin put down but added that in most of these cases so far there has been no blame attached to anyone yet. the main issue is Big things and little things dont mix on the roads well.
    The bow roundabout looks like it needs a serious redesign.

    aP
    Member

    bencooper +1million
    Words fail me when people on a cycling forum are attacking other cyclists for cycling on roads. Yes, some people do things wrong, others don’t. There’s a very famous rule called the 80:20 rule, I’m sure it applies here.
    The evidence points without any question towards HGVs and tipper trucks being the single most dangerous vehicles on London roads.

    Ben, equally to automatically suggest that the drivers were at fault when there’s no evidence is offensive to them and their families.

    It’s much more likely though – between 68% and 80% of cycle/motor vehicle collisions fault of driver and that’s research from the legendarily pro-car Westminster council

    Premier Icon ddmonkey
    Subscriber

    I agree with the earphone comment – you need to engage with your surroundings as much as possible, situational awareness. Playing music in your ears is dulling one on your key senses.

    There’s little evidence to support either position.

    What I’ve said IS hard to hear, but it’s the truth, and the truth could just possibly save other lives.

    A hard-hitting advertising campaign showing a cyclist being crushed by a lorry would do far more for safety than pussyfooting around being respectful to the dead and trying to spare people’s hurt feelings.

    Premier Icon ton
    Subscriber

    Karinofnine, very well said.

    ninfan
    Member

    Well said Kof9

    Maybe if the CTC feel so strongly that the police/CPS aren’t doing their job they should start taking out some private prosecutions against drivers instead of just complaining constantly?

    Further, every cyclist who jumps a red light simply hardens the attitude of motorists against us.

    http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/shafted-again.html

    You know what? **** that. The writer does make some good and sensible observations in this piece, but this little “proposal” obviates every single one of them. It’s impossible, and in fact downright stupid, to “obey the letter of the law” on your bicycle when you find yourself in a situation where the streets and the laws are designed specifically for cars, which describes most of the United States. Moreover, it’s gone way, way past the point where cyclists should need to prove to the very people who are **** us (that’s drivers and police officers) that we “deserve respect.” We deserve respect for being human, and it ends there. Yet we’re supposed to be good little boy scouts and girl scouts–even when it’s more dangerous for us to do so–to prove we’re deserving of not being killed? That’s just stupid and insulting.

    This op-ed reads like a homophobe defending gay marriage, but saying that homosexuals should “act less faggy” in order to earn the respect of straight people.

    A hard-hitting advertising campaign showing a cyclist being crushed by a lorry would do far more for safety than pussyfooting around being respectful to the dead and trying to spare people’s hurt feelings

    I don’t believe it would because every driver believes they are highly skilled and ‘it will never happen to them’. The reason juries almost always fail to convict on ‘dangerous driving’ charges is they can imagine driving in the same way themselves.

    rewski
    Member

    and it is the London plated cars that are the worst…. make of that what you will

    tosh, that’s what I make of that, most humans are idiots, even in the Cotswolds.

    amedias
    Member

    I am a regular long-term cycle commuter. Every day I observe cyclists pull out of side roads without looking, change lanes without looking or indicating,

    I am also a long-term cycle commuter, everyday I observe many more drivers than cyclists, pulling out of side roads without looking, change lanes without looking or indicating, and the big difference is the driver is in control of a ton or more of metal.

    and they ride up the nearside of vehicles when the vehicle is indicating to turn left (FFS! what has a lorry driver got to do? They indicate, they have audible warning, and yet idiots STILL try to pass on the nearside).

    I do occasionally see this too, but not all that frequently if I’m honest, and I really do believe that most of this is down to them just not realising the danger they’re putting themselves in rather than a deliberate attempt to kill themselves.

    People ride along with earphones in, completely oblivious to what’s going on around them, distracted by whatever they are listening to and cut off from

    their surroundings. Crazy.

    Well… there’s a certain amount of debate to be had here, deaf people, wind noise vs music, volume of music etc, not to mention them still probably being able to hear more than the car drivers can inside the car, but we’ll skip over this one or save it for another thread?

    They fiddle around with whatever’s in their front basket, wear clothes that flap and catch, and shoes that can slip off the pedals.

    Most of the cyclists I see are normally concentrating on ridign their bike, the only fiddling with stuff I ever see is when stopped at lights, maybe a location thing though? Clothes comments are a bit odd… are you suggesting some kind of recommended cycling uniform? Other countries seem to get by just fine with people wearing normal everyday clothes to ride a bike.

    Further, every cyclist who jumps a red light simply hardens the attitude of motorists against us. Swerving round pedestrians on crossings doesn’t help us either.

    Both of these p155 me right off when I see them, however, I genuinely see more cars jumping red lights and crossing than cyclists round here, so my theory is it’s ‘people’ that do this regardless of their mode of transport, some will just do this, see comment about tons of metal above ^

    It is very very sad when someone gets killed, however, the way some people ride my only surprise is that there are not many more fatalities.

    it is, it really really is, very sad indeed, I just wish our reaction was more around what we can do to improve rather than finger pointing and blame gaming. my surprise is that we don’t (as a nation/public) get more upset and angry about them and try to do something about it.

    It is true that vehicles have a duty of care towards more vulnerable road users, however, vulnerable road users also have a duty – to behave in a reasonable and responsible manner and to mitigate their damage/losses.

    agreed, BUT there is no evidence any of the people killed here were not doing absolutely everything they could have been to stay safe, the bad ones are the minority of cyclists, and the cyclists are a minority of road users, and a minority of a minority is a very small number, don’t tar us all with the actions of so few, and there’s still this elephant in the room of certain vehicles just not being suited to busy urban environments, no matter how careful everyone is.

    consider yourself flamed gently warmed 🙂

    You do make some good points though but I think the reason so many people get grumpy when they are raised is the tone, we need less blame, more awareness/help.

    That, and the fact that we do get so frustrated that these same arguments get trotted out all the time when it really really is a small, but more visible, group of people we are talking about.

    You always hear the anecdote about the cyclist that jumps the lights or weaves all over the road listening to their ipod, never about the other 100 that also rode that same route safely and without incident.

    huws
    Member

    way some people ride my only surprise is that there are not many more fatalities

    I see so many illegal and dangerous moves by cyclists that I can’t help think why more aren’t killed each day

    This has been said twice* and agreed with a few times but the death and serious injury rates are still very low so it would suggest that those moves only appear to be dangerous and aren’t actually that dangerous.

    *Not a particularly large sample but hey ho you work with the data you have to hand.

    Ps. I’m not condoning doing stupid things that may or may not be dangerous, I’m suggesting that cycling on London’s congested roads is generally quite safe.

    Road Justice

    Please take a look at this CTC campaign – it really does make a lot of sense

    scu98rkr
    Member

    There are a lot of bad cyclists out there and there are a lot of bad drivers, but its always going to be the driver that ends up winning in any accident.

    It is true that vehicles have a duty of care towards more vulnerable road users, however, vulnerable road users also have a duty – to behave in a reasonable and responsible manner and to mitigate their damage/losses.

    This is just old school thinking. It like saying some people just had to die working down the mines or deaths on oil rigs are just collateral.

    Your never going to make every driver/cyclist perfect. We need to be working towards improving safety. An easy way to start would be to redesign lorrys to give the driver a better view. This would mean the lorry drivers would make few mistakes. Also item in cities should be carried in as small as vehicles as possible. I cant see why both drivers + cyclist would nt be in favour of safer vehicles.

    The next step is some decent cycling infrastructure.

    fasthaggis
    Member

    Karen
    Sadly,a lot of that is true for most city commutes .

    When I read some of that other thread about things that have changed you as a cyclist,my first thought was – 10 years commuting in London-( Essex road anyone 🙄 ) .
    The thing that changed me ,was realizing that ( unless there was some massive infrastructure put in place) all my shouting and angry man stuff at other road users was a waste of time ,as there would be more along next week,doing the same old same.
    So when things did happen ,I would try to let it go more often .I also found ways to avoid a lot of the aggro by changing routes and times that I cycled.
    It would be interesting to know how much bike tuition courses have increased in cities or if there is still the “ah it’s only a pushbike,how hard can it me?” kinda thinking ,and folk just go for it.

    Of course ,commuting on country roads ,where traffic is moving around a lot quicker ,now brings a whole different style of thinking and riding. 😯

    Pigface
    Member

    Bring back cycling proficiency training in schools

    Bring back cycling proficiency training in schools

    it never went away

    http://bikeability.dft.gov.uk/

    scu98rkr
    Member

    Bring back cycling proficiency training in schools

    Why ? Where has this got us cycling has been on the decrease for the last 70 years.

    Although ur quote may be sarcasm.

    The next step is teaching drivers and cyclists to share roads.

    I’m not sold on segregation – I think for A and trunk roads it would be better to have a separate bike path, properly separated by a physical barrier, properly lit, swept and surfaced. However, in towns which were built long ago (ie most) there isn’t enough room.

    I think that segregation encourages motorists to believe that the roads are ‘theirs’. That’s my personal opinion and I understand there are good arguments for and against.

    Re deaf people. FFS. I’m sure deaf people rely on other senses to keep up good observations when cycling.

    And no, it isn’t ‘old school thinking’ – you have to take responsibility for your own actions.

    cybicle
    Member

    In the mercifully few collisions I’ve had on my bike, every one of them was the car driver’s fault. And in every case I’ve heard of where someone I know has had a collision, it’s been the same. I’ve admittedly had one or two lapses of concentration, but thankfully never caused a collision.

    So some cyclists do silly things; attacking a small minority of cyclists who genuinely do things which cause danger to other road users is backwards and totally unhelpful. Because the simple truth is, the vast majority of cyclists don’t ride in a manner that puts themselves in danger. They simply don’t. Running the odd red light when it’s safe for a cyclist to do so may infuriate frustrated motorists, but it seldom causes any real harm. Plus the relatively slow speed and low weight of a cyclist is seldom sufficient to cause serious injury.

    Millions have been spent on dedicated cycle lanes (as well as millions wasted on painting blue strips on dangerous main roads), and things are improving, but it’s at glacial pace really. Rather than cyclists replacing other vehicles, they are simply more sharing the same space on the roads.

    The recent spate of large construction projects in the City and central London has meant a large increase in the number of HGVs on the roads of the capital. But I don’t suppose a few cyclists dying will stand in the way of rampant corporate development. There are many ways of addressing matters, and making the roads safer for all, but they’re not being explored, as it seems corporate interests will always trump the needs of greater society.

    cybicle
    Member

    However, in towns which were built long ago (ie most) there isn’t enough room for large vehicles with poor all-round visibility

    FTFY.

    Lorries and central London aren’t compatible. High time this issue was addressed, rather than being ignored and red herrings such as cyclists’ bad habits constantly highlighted.

    brooess
    Member

    It’s massively oversimplifying to suggest that these incidents are purely caused by the fact that some cyclists are riding without skill and judgement!

    Basic consideration of the road environment (multiple independent actors with a whole range of abilities, experience and attitudes towards the law + many different road layouts and road conditions and weather conditions etc) tells you that the behaviour of a single group cannot influence things to the degree that they cause their own deaths!

    The data says three things:
    1. Lorries are disproportionally involved in the deaths of cyclists in London (see data posted above)
    2. Collisions between people on bikes and people driving are disproportionally the fault of the driver (see link to Westminster study above)
    3. The number of people cycling has massively increased in recent years. By definition that means there’s an increase in the proportion of riders who are inexperienced

    Anecdote suggests:
    1. There’s a low respect for operating with skill, consideration and within the law amongst all road user groups – cyclists, drivers, pedestrians
    2. There’s a horribly anti-cyclist attitude in the UK – within the Police, CPS, courts, and many drivers.

    Personally I take the advice my Grandad gave to my Mum when she started driving in the early ’60s (ie: not new advice!) – “assume everyone else on the road is an idiot”

    So whilst when I’m cycling I will keep to the law, to best cycling practice as I understand it, and commonsense, my bitter experience is that it is not keeping me out of danger – too many psychotic, ill-informed, impatient and aggressive drivers out there.

    Consideration of the cycling environment, data, anecdote and experience (c5k miles on my bike this year) suggest that whilst my own behaviour can keep me safe to a large degree, there’s no way that 100% adherence to best practice and the law will stop getting cyclists killed… that’s way too simplistic…

    There’s a lot of change needed to make cycling safe. Our own behaviour is one contributor but only one…

    Premier Icon cookeaa
    Subscriber

    It’s that time of year, clocks change, light conditions and temperatures are less than ideal, everybody’s judgement is likely to be affected for a few weeks (cyclists, motorists and Ped’s). meaning we ALL need to take more care… Unfortunately London is one of those places where good judgement is in pretty short supply.

    Jumping to Apportion blame to one group of road users or another is missing the point a bit, no single group of road users is perfect… cyclists disproportionately feel the effects as they are more vulnerable…

    Measures can be taken by all to improve safety for all… CEMEX/Ready mix for example… After some significant campaigning.

    Perhaps rather than just chucking about blame, it would be more use if people think about reasonable measures to help reduce deaths and put those forwards…

    Dammit, this is really interesting, but I have to go out. I’ll be back…

Viewing 45 posts - 1 through 45 (of 143 total)

The topic ‘4 cyclists killed in 8 day in London’ is closed to new replies.