30 Secs of your time please. Tubeless Survey

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  • 30 Secs of your time please. Tubeless Survey
  • Hi, as part of my dissertation for Engineering mamanagement I’m looking at problems with tubeless wheel/tyre systems particularly inflation issues.

    Please could you complete the following 6 question mainly YES/NO survey.

    Tubeless Survey

    Many thanks
    Si

    Premier Icon njee20
    Subscriber

    Done. Personally I found the question about how much you’d spend slightly leading – I’d remove the ‘it’ll cost this much’ flag.

    clubber
    Member

    Done but tbh I think your questions are a bit off.

    For example, have I ever had problems? Yes but I’ve now learnt the solutions and probably won’t have them again which in turn might affect whether I’d buy something to help.

    Or similarly would have have spent 10-20 quid when I started if it essentially guaranteed an easy fit – possibly, probably. Would I do it now given that I tend not to have the issues? Probably not or at least I’d spend less on it.

    sideshow
    Member

    Done. Don’t ride tubeless, tried it once, lasted half a ride before I ripped a tyre that I could never get to reseal again. What mess and what faff.

    So I couldn’t answer two of your questions – how much would it cost and would I buy it – it would depend entirely on how well it worked. £30 to have an easy always working tubeless setup, yes. £5 to have a plastic drinks bottle with a couple of inflation tubes, no.

    clubber
    Member

    £5 to have a plastic drinks bottle with a couple of inflation tubes, no.

    That’s how I’ve read it too (though I’m expecting more than a fiver)

    Premier Icon thepurist
    Subscriber

    Done but agree with clubber – suggest the Problems question should use something like a Likert scale rather than a simple Yes/No.

    Personally I’ve run tubeless for many years but still occasionally have problems even with all tricks. Yes or No encourages an answer didn’t want to complicate it.
    And if there is a viable solution it won’t be a plastic bottle!

    Premier Icon njee20
    Subscriber

    You’ve spammed my ‘latest replies’ on BikeRadar now!

    matther01
    Member

    Done. Never any issues inflating using my Joe Blow but seating tyres is my PITA FWIW.

    Premier Icon shortcut
    Subscriber

    Si,

    Done with a sensible hat on. It really shouldn’t be as much of a pain as it is. I tend to give up after a quick go with the track pump and once red of face use a CO2 cannister. With those costing around £1 a go proper product would be ace.

    Bottle and hose just isn’t great and can be a pain in the ass to set up. Compressors are expensive there has to be a product to solve the problem but no one has made it yet.

    good luck.

    Andy

    Premier Icon njee20
    Subscriber

    I’m definitely in the ‘if it doesn’t go straight up have a think why’ camp. Just built my Light Bicycle rims, and the Rocket Rons are too baggy, sod using compressors, luggage straps, inflating with a tube overnight, doing it standing on one leg etc, I’ll just put another turn of Stan’s tape on!

    These days I find the problem is more commonly tyres being seriously tight, the advantage of that being that they go up like a dream once you’ve wrestled them on.

    Premier Icon Andy R
    Subscriber

    shortcut – Member
    Si,

    Bottle and hose just isn’t great and can be a pain in the ass to set up. Compressors are expensive there has to be a product to solve the problem but no one has made it yet.

    I found that a Coke bottle, some hose and a 10mm gas valve works fine for me. What’s not to like?

    Premier Icon njee20
    Subscriber

    Compressors are expensive there has to be a product to solve the problem but no one has made it yet.

    It’s not sold in fancy packaging, but there are plenty of guides on how to create a ghetto inflator as Andy’s described.

    Premier Icon rickon
    Subscriber

    Well, where to start…

    The problem isn’t really the lack of tooling available. It’s a lack of knowledge and experience.

    Tubeless tyres wont go up for two main reasons:

    – too much friction between the tyre and rim interface
    – too little air volume (this is actually an exaggerated result of above friction)

    To solve both of these requires:

    – Reducing the friction, i.e. lubing the interface
    – Increasing the amount of volume delivered, i.e. using a high volume pump

    The associated cost is:

    – ~£30 for pump
    – £2.99 for lube

    So for £33, and enough change for a cappuccino, you can tubeless your tyres in a couple of stress-free minutes without any swearing.

    However, this doesn’t mean:

    – there aren’t numpties out there who don’t know the above
    – there aren’t numpties out there who give out the wrong advice
    – there aren’t numpties out there who were the above, and now have a compressor and want a cheaper and less noisy solution
    – there aren’t numpties out there who want an easy way of not doing something right in the first place

    I haven’t failed to tubeless any tyre onto a Stan’s rim using the above method in about 2 years now. Multiple manufacturers, and different models.

    I have completed the questionnaire.

    Been running tubeless/ust for years and only ever had issues seating the bead on one Specialized tyre; therefore I am perhaps not your target audience that has persistent issues, but good luck with the project.

    My thoughts are the ‘majority’ have a standard track pump and not a high volume one. The high volume ones although shifting more air are then no good to get your roadie tyres up to a 100psi.
    Co2 is one time use and reacts with some sealants.
    Compressors are expensive and take up space

    Anyway thanks for the responses!

    clubber
    Member

    Tubeless tyres wont go up for two main reasons:

    – too much friction between the tyre and rim interface
    – too little air volume (this is actually an exaggerated result of above friction)

    And the third – rim/tyre combination too loose (as per njee’s comments)

    Though incidentally, I’m not entirely convinced about lubing to reduce friction. I reckon that’s more to do with helping form an initial seal.

    I’m definitely in the ‘if it doesn’t go straight up have a think why’ camp. Just built my Light Bicycle rims, and the Rocket Rons are too baggy, sod using compressors, luggage straps, inflating with a tube overnight, doing it standing on one leg etc, I’ll just put another turn of Stan’s tape on!

    This +1, although I’m a tightarse so just use electrical tape on the MTB.

    CO2 cannister. With those costing around £1 a go proper product would be ace.

    IME they curdle the stans fluid meaning they pick up punctures. Ok as a fix on a ride, but then needs faffing once home.

    Bottle and hose just isn’t great and can be a pain in the ass to set up. Compressors are expensive there has to be a product to solve the problem but no one has made it yet.

    A gas bottle with a trackpump hose and valve on one end, and a presta valve on the other? Problem would be regulating it, sticking 150psi in a cyinder is easy (if tireing), not then destroying your rim/tyre with it would be the challenge. Add a regulator and you’re most of the way to the cost of a compressor.

    I’d still just add another layer of tape though, a whole roll of electrical tape is 30g.

    +1 for badly worded survey too, everyone has had problems, but 99% of people probably solved them with some other simple tip/trick.

    Premier Icon rickon
    Subscriber

    And the third – rim/tyre combination too loose (as per njee’s comments)

    In that case I wouldn’t use the tyre, as it’s likely to burp or come off at a time you really don’t want it to – as you’re putting a good lean on it, or jumping hard onto it.

    The other scenario is a tyre that is too tight, and the same response as above – don’t use it. It’s likely to blow off the rim unexpectedly when the bead fails due to stress. Or if it doesn’t you’ll not be able to get the tyre off, or back on, when you puncture in the middle of nowhere.

    clubber
    Member

    It won’t be too loose once you add extra rim tape…

    Premier Icon rickon
    Subscriber

    Though incidentally, I’m not entirely convinced about lubing to reduce friction. I reckon that’s more to do with helping form an initial seal.

    Yes…………..

    That’s the main problem with tubelessing a tyre. Keeping it up is a matter of removing the mould release agent beforehand, and then adding enough sealant to get all pinholes to seal – which can take a little while.

    Premier Icon rickon
    Subscriber

    It won’t be too loose once you add extra rim tape…

    No. But it may well pop off when you’re g-out’ing a berm, or landing a big jump, or banging through rocks.

    I just buy tyres with the right actual ETRTO that fits my rim. I know the brands that are spot on now, and just use those.

    Given, its a PITA to buy a tyre and then it wont fit and have to send it back – but it’s the only thing in contact with the ground before your face is.

    clubber
    Member

    But it may well pop off when you’re g-out’ing a berm, or landing a big jump, or banging through rocks.

    Not IME but I guess we all have different experiences of it.

    Premier Icon rickon
    Subscriber

    Not IME but I guess we all have different experiences of it.

    Not yet anyway 😉

    They may well be fine, but I prefer something I know:

    – won’t fail randomly
    – will be easy to fix a puncture in the field

    steve_b77
    Member

    My thoughts are the ‘majority’ have a standard track pump and not a high volume one. The high volume ones although shifting more air are then no good to get your roadie tyres up to a 100psi.

    TopeakJoe Blow’s are great for both getting tubeless tyres up and pumping up roadie tyres to 100psi.

    As above, the solutions if using the right kit in the first place are simple.

    Premier Icon njee20
    Subscriber

    I just buy tyres with the right actual ETRTO that fits my rim. I know the brands that are spot on now, and just use those.

    And yet you also said:

    I haven’t failed to tubeless any tyre onto a Stan’s rim using the above method in about 2 years now. Multiple manufacturers, and different models.

    You can’t discover the former whilst the latter is true. Either you’ve been lucky, or you’ve tried very few tyres. Sooner or later something will change and it becomes a bit more of a faff.

    Take Schwalbe tyres, always my default choice. Back in the day I ran Olympic rims, with rim strips, and Evo tyres, had about 6 pairs. Always worked perfectly, never had any problems with inflating or sealing.

    Then I switched to Podium rims, which were marginally tighter. At the same time Scwhable introduced tubeless ready tyres, which were marginally tighter. The result was some chuffing tight combinations. Still the same ETRTO (stupid comment anyway – they’re all gonna be 559mm for a 26″ tyre), but causes compatibility issues.

    Older tyres still worked perfectly, so I simply sought those, rather than the TLR ones. Job done.

    There’s no need to be quite so preachy!

    Trimix
    Member

    You could just use a tube for a few quid, that would work.

    Premier Icon njee20
    Subscriber

    And rim brakes, rigid forks and singlespeed. All work.

    Premier Icon DezB
    Subscriber

    I done the survey 🙂

    Only ever had issues with one tyre: A Kenda Small Block 8 UST being this: And the third – rim/tyre combination too loose

    So I wouldn’t be buying any tool that the OP is thinking of designing/has designed.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    Could really have done with a “do you use a compressor” box since all my answers are skewed by that.

    But I ended up saying I’d pay a small amount for a more portable (car boot) one, if it was better than using a trackpump, because I just don’t like doing it in a hurry with just a pump.

    superfli
    Member

    Done and will pay for a device to help. Partly because it helps with inflation and partly because its an extra gadget/tool for the mancave 🙂

    soobalias
    Member

    £30 to have an easy always working tubeless setup

    think i spent more than that on 819s and tubeless ready tyres and sealant…..
    with those caveats, only ever need a few suds and a track pump.

    taxi25
    Member

    Done. Don’t know what problem some of you had with the questions. Have you ever had a problem inflating tubless tyres ? If yes how much would you be prepared to pay for a tool to make it easier ? Its not rocket science.

    clubber
    Member

    Have you ever had a problem inflating tubless tyres ?

    I did when I started. I don’t now. My answer therefore is ‘yes’ I have experienced problems.

    If yes how much would you be prepared to pay for a tool to make it easier ?

    I answered yes but I would probably pay more like someone who answered no. The questions aren’t giving consistent results.

    I expect that I’m like a lot of people. By my reckoning, most people who use tubeless now have either never had problems (‘proper’ set up with good combination of tyres/rims) or had problems when starting out but have now solved them.

    So, is the OP targeting
    – tubeless-virgins
    – people who’ve tried but failed
    – people who’ve got tubeless working well now?
    – (possibly a fourth group – people who are ok with their current tubeless set up but struggle to change their tyres or refit them)

    I would be trying to ask questions to categorise people into those groups first and then work out what they’d be willing to pay.

    Premier Icon cookeaa
    Subscriber

    Done, but I’m Not sure what that survey would usefully tell you though.

    TBH My few problems with inflation have been down to the tyre I was trying to get inflated, as for the “If there was a product that made inflating tubeless tyres easier would your buy it?” well there is, I answered Yes but I already own a compressor, what I’d be more interested in is something portable for trail repair/reinflations…

    You need to be clearer on context, Most people using tubeless have an at home tyre inflation solution.. A neat little product for fixing and re-inflating a holed tubeless tyre on the trail without resorting to tubes is the real bonus, this can of course be done already with external patches or plugs and CO2 cannisters…

    I’m guessing what your going for is a posh version of the 2Ltr lemonade bottle and a track pump, maybe a simple accumulator, which would still be a Garage tool… Good Guess?

    MTB Rob
    Member

    Sorry to say this BUT I (taken the basic idea off someone else) already made a tool/item to aid inflating tubeless tyres and it’s great! makes my life so much easier when I have to change 2 or 3 pairs of tyres track side because it rained over night!

    Just for this thread lets call it “FTR inflater” (I don’t have a name for it as it works)
    The FTR inflater is a conversion of another older version of a “item”/part (the newer vision are every where but can’t be re-inflated/presurred) that is out there,
    it is very potable, small(ish) and and be reused/pressurised in a field with a normal track pump and when topped up/pressurised it can do 2 tyres easy with out topping up again.

    I have also looked into selling “FTR Inflater” after converting them ready for use. (still on the back burner)
    BUT I do have a few issues; (more to cover my ass when selling to the public!)

    As a pressurised “item” (even if we say a max of 150psi) does the “item” need to have a pressuration check and certification? (I would leak test it at a min, pressure it & put in tub of water type check)
    Note, item be non pressurised when sent.

    Finding enough of the older “item” version, newer ones I feel can be converted (drill a hole, tap and thread part in) but need a bit of extra work & cost in parts, but then it will bring the first issue into account even more
    The cost of “item” (I have tried to find cost of item but not much luck, also min number order but got a rough idea based on a “new” item)

    The “item” state, I would feel they would need sand blasting blasting and a re-spaying, adding cost.

    Posting item.

    Rough cost I worked out is looking about £65-£75 maybe a bit depending on hose fitting etc. So might be a bit high for some people?
    If I bring sand blasting and painting “in house” might be cheaper.
    I been using mine for over 3 years so it is a long lasting item.

    The biggest issue it the first one.

    If anyone knows me and knows what “item” is, please keep it to yourself as I think it might be fun to see what people will guess the “item” is!

    For the record I’ve run tubeless for about 6 yrs now, always a proper system and still occasionally have to resort to the compressor or CO2, not because of incompetency just because it can be a faff especially if you change your tyres regularly, tyres that went up first time on first fitment don’t always on 2nd or 3rd. If the survey was too long or complicated people wouldn’t bother. The questions where thought of in about 30secs in a break and agreed they could have been better worded however I just needed some data & quickly I now have it. 150+ responses

    Many thanks

    And MTB Rob yes need certification for anything above 0.5 bar

    Premier Icon midlifecrashes
    Subscriber

    I’d say, having been a Scuba diver, trying to market a rechargeable 100psi+ compressed air tank without looking at certification, testing and training is a Health and Safety nightmare. How many fingers would it remove if it went pop in you hand while charging it?

    clubber
    Member

    Fire extinguisher, I’m reckoning, Rob.

    Or something else used domestically or readily available that is designed to hold high pressure safely in a domestic/work setting.

    clubber
    Member

    And FWIW, if it has lots of volume it may well not need 100psi. A large, relatively low pressure (50psi) container would supply air more consistently than a small, high pressure one which undoubtedly supplies a good initial blast but is less sustained – of course testing would be needed to show whether that initial blast is necessary but anyone who’s seen a tubeless setup blow on initial inflation at even 40psi will know that it makes a loud noise…

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