+1+1×0 😉

Mathematics is a set of rules and conventions and it allows abstractions to be made about the physical world: no rules = no maths, no maths = no science/engineering, no science/emgineering = no shiny toys to plug into…….

Well played there Don.

Although you could’ve done something like +0.1×10-10*1…

No, it’s a piece of maths that should be imbedded so deeply that you never have to think about it and only really just a little more advanced than the action of addition, subtraction, multipication and division themselves.

Whilst berating may not be correct we wouldn’t (and on this forum don’t) tolerate a similar ignorance of English grammar (grammar is probably overstating it, this is probably about the level of basic sentance constuction) so why it accpetable to tolerate a similar level of mathematical illiteracy?

Not directly related but …

In the real world, THIS is why you need to be specific.

If I remember right one team measured thrust in Newtons per meter sq. and the other measure in pounds per square inch. Unfortunately the raw figures turned out close enough to not be picked up, the result being several squillion dollars missing a planet and sailing off who knows where.

No offence to anyone but If…IF anyones interested there is a great book out called “Get over your Math Phobia”

Or..

Maths for Dummies.

I’m not kidding around, they’re both excellent books for those that feel they may need a teeeny weeeny bit of help in this area.

Bez – Agreed, it IS excusable to have forgotten about it – it’t not really something that you’d use in everyday life unless you’re a primary school maths teacher. But when the correct answer is pointed out and explained, and people STILL don’t want to understand it, that’s when we have a problem. I know it’s melodramatic, but this is one of the problems of broken Britain; people would prefer, on the whole, to be ignorant as if it helps them in life somehow. If I ran the country, the ‘zero crowd’ would be rounded up to iron my shirts and clean my drains.

I remember BIDMAS from school but I don’t remember anything about using spaces instead of brackets. I got a B in maths as well 😕

yeah, I got stuck too. looked at bodmas and pedmas and none mention what to do if there’s a couple of random spaces in the equation.
can someone help?
i’m trying to type it all into my phones calculator and I get stuck just before the ‘times’ sign….. what key do I press for space, and where in bodmas does it tell me about that. thanks in advance. 😉

Well that kind of demonstrates my point, the difference is I don’t actually mind being corrected on such matters and I don’t get huffy when people point out when I am wrong.

That being said however the rules of grammar and spelling are not fixed and change over time for no reason in particular. The rules of maths are not quite so flexible.

“It just tends to get omitted and the terms placed together“

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING! 🙂

Anyone who works with equations can remember the precedence of “a + 4b” because they see it every day; that’s how multiplication is written in the mathematical world – no-one ever writes “a + 4 x b” so it’s easy to forget, or at least stumble over it, especially when you’re led into it by a purposefully-constructed algebraic equivalent of a tongue-twister.

The only reason the multiplication sign continues to exist is that you can’t use the concatenation syntax with two numeric values: clearly “4 x 2” cannot be written as “42” (even though that is the answer, of course ;)). And the only time you ever need to write an expression which multiplies two constant numeric values is in primary school; hence that’s the scope of its usefulness.

^^ Wot I said. And I stand by it.

I use spreadsheets, I would write =A1+(4*B1)

I like to think brackets are a bit like paragraphs. They make things easier to read even though they don’t always change the content/result

Not arbitrary at all – exactly the same rules as elsewhere.

There’s shame in attempting to argue that those who do know it are wrong. Or in then trying to make out that such ignorance is somehow cool.

This! Yes I agree but you’re onto a loser, either you are arguing with idiots in public or you’re being trolled, either way you lose.

Even tho you are correct 🙂

Yes, I don’t remember the mnemonic, either. But I’m nearly as old as you!

Percentage changes are important in my work, which is why I’m careful to get them right. But my question was specifically about BODMAS.

And the number of people who say, “phew, back to where we started!’.

Yes, it’s just like getting used to the fact that if you travel 100 miles north, 100 miles east, 100 miles south and 100 miles west, you don’t end up where you started. 🙂

“Not arbitrary at all – exactly the same rules as elsewhere.“

That means it’s consistent, not that it isn’t arbitrary. The world could have defined addition and subtraction as having precedence over multiplication and division.

“There’s shame in attempting to argue that those who do know it are wrong. Or in then trying to make out that such ignorance is somehow cool.“

I was doing neither – not sure what your point is.

“the term in that numerator“

Whoops – sorry. You got me there. I skimmed it and saw the large division symbol but missed that one.

“That equation from the discussion on Vieta’s formulas“

I notice the use of nice clear parentheses in it 🙂

“I disagree. I think not being able to do basic arithmetic that a 9 year old can/should do, even when given a calculator, is pretty shameful. YMMV.“

No, MMdoesn’tV, but what I’m trying to say is that there’s a difference between being able to do something and being able to understand something that is written. Now, I’ll grant you, that second part is still important but it’s different. The thing is that in this specific question, the way it’s written is a way in which no-one writes things outside of early education, so it’s easy to forget. I can do maths pretty well, but to be honest, I either forgot or didn’t think hard enough, because I’ve not seen anything written in that form and with that operator in nigh on 30 years.

When I get to the point in life where my son is learning calculus and starts asking me questions about integration and differentiation, I know that despite being fluent in it 20 years ago I’ll have to read up on it again before I’ll be able to help. The reason for this is that I simply haven’t needed to do any calculus for about 15 years.

Now, the thing is that pretty much everyone can add “2 + 2” and can keep going with that. Pretty much everyone can multiply “2 x 0”. People could forget what “2 + 2 x 0” is because they haven’t had to deal with arithmetic operator precedence in decades.

The thing is that the STW population all sits at computers, so it’s a fairly numerate place. Everyone who’s posting now is probably at work, which implies they do a numerate job at a computer – as a population sample it’s probably above average intelligence and above average in terms of numeracy and literacy, and crucially probably above average in terms of needing to deal with numbers on a regular basis.

But still very few of us would ever see an expression like “2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 * 0” which – don’t ignore this point because it’s important – is designed to trip people up.

I’ve forgotten some of my calculus. Some other people have forgotten some of their operator precedence (or in some cases haven’t, but have just made a mistake because they haven’t concentrated enough on some totally irrelevant question on Facebook – whoop-de-doo). It’s the same thing but on a different level.

I’m not saying innumeracy is cool, and if that’s what anyone infers that from what I’ve said then their literacy is as questionable as anyone’s numeracy. But there is no shame in forgetting things that you simply don’t need to know. (Should I be ashamed that I can no longer speak Latin?) Forgetting or mistaking operator precedence in that equation is not the same thing as being unable to deal with numbers, it’s simply not being able to readily recall a piece of syntax which is pretty much unused in anyone’s life.

While we’re here, assuming you have a full driving licence, without looking it up what’s the stopping distance of a normal car at 60mph? You know, one of those pieces of information you were taught once and have never needed since. If you get it wrong, can I start a thread to take the piss out of you and complain about Broken Britain?

Do they? Or do they just count out the change? It’s a long time since I worked in a shop…