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  • 20mph in Wales…..
  • jhinwxm
    Free Member

    The power mad and pi$$ed on their own importance Welsh Government strikes again. I remember when they stopped supermarkets selling non-essential goods. Just off the scale lunatic dictator stuff.

    This is just another one to add to the list of things they’ve imposed on people against the will of the nation with no evidence. Just like the 50mph debacle.

    To make it worse they’ve royally messed it up and where I live confusion reigns and plenty of roads here that you have no clue if its 20 or 3omph. I did read it depends on the distance between the streetlights so I must remember to take my measuring wheel with me next time I go out in the car.

    I think that to support the people who work on the speed awareness courses in Wales, who are about to become inundated, we should bang pots and pans on our doorsteps once a week, because we all know how highly beneficial and worthwhile that is, don’t we.

    matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    There should be signs at the border, for sure.

    “Here be 20mph dragons”

    matt_outandabout
    Full Member


    @jhinwxm
    – U OK hun?

    simondbarnes
    Full Member

    Just like the 50mph debacle

    The 50mph sections with average speed cameras? They are wonderful. So much more relaxing driving through Wales without pricks trying to overtake every few seconds.

    imnotverygood
    Full Member
    uselesshippy
    Free Member

    I’d sign a petition against Wales 😁

    Cougar
    Full Member

    As much as I think autonomous vehicles are an answer I actually cant see it ever happening in this country.

    The road has way more variables and situations so the tech needs to be outstanding.

    “In this country” is particularly relevant I think. The UK – like many countries I suppose – has a fairly unique road system. Any autonomous vehicles would have to be specifically designed for the idiosyncrasies of our roads. That’s not going to happen, we’re not that important a market.

    Random example. My Seat has a reversing camera. When you put it in reverse it drops an overlay down the side, covering like a quarter of the view. On the left hand side of the screen. It’s clearly been designed for a left-hand drive car where I’m sure it’s great, but on a RHD it covers up almost all of the kerbside where you’re trying to park. Now imagine that foresight on a self-driving car built in Spain.

    None of the rail or underground network was built with the idea of autonomous running.

    A lot of our roads weren’t even built for cars.

    Twodogs
    Full Member

    . Given how unclear the border is on the road

    What, you mean apart from the effing big sign saying “Welcome to Wales”? (In Welsh too)

    tthew
    Full Member

    I did read it depends on the distance between the streetlights so I must remember to take my measuring wheel with me next time I go out in the car

    Which is exactly the same rule that defines a 30 zone in the rest of the UK. Rule 124 of the highway code.

    Petition against it

    In the interest of balance, is there a petition to retain it? I’d rather sign that.

    molgrips
    Full Member

    This is just another one to add to the list of things they’ve imposed on people against the will of the nation with no evidence.

    There’s plenty of evidence. You ignoring it does not mean it’s not there.

    I did read it depends on the distance between the streetlights so I must remember to take my measuring wheel with me next time I go out in the car.

    Not really, it’s when the distance is less than 200 yards. Do you know what 200 yards looks like? Streetlights are always much closer than that in urban areas.

    So – streelights, no sign, 20. That’s it. Remember it.

    the people who work on the speed awareness courses in Wales, who are about to become inundated

    Great. They can spell it out for those people who are struggling, and also explain the evidence you’re so reluctant to look for at the same time

    reluctantjumper
    Full Member

    Don’t forget all the signs suddenly having two languages on them, sometimes painted in the road too.

    This is just another one to add to the list of things they’ve imposed on people against the will of the nation with no evidence. Just like the 50mph debacle.

    Both were in their manifestos that they were voted in with, democracy at work. The non-essential goods stuff during the first lockdown was coped from Westminster who changed their mind at the last second for England, not the fault of the WAG.

    I think that to support the people who work on the speed awareness courses in Wales, who are about to become inundated, we should bang pots and pans on our doorsteps once a week, because we all know how highly beneficial and worthwhile that is, don’t we.

    The police won’t be issuing fines for a fair few months while the changes settle in so no Speed Awareness course will be offered for minor indiscretions. If you go well above the new 20, like enough to be speeding in a 30, then a fine and point will be forthcoming but that’s no different to before.

    For someone who seems so wound up by all of this and enough to post a barely coherent rant on a pokey little cycling forum you really haven’t done your research and should step away and relax.

    molgrips
    Full Member

    Now imagine that foresight on a self-driving car built in Spain.

    Again, safety critical software would not be designed and built in the same way.

    mert
    Free Member

    I have a one-year old Seat, the “infotainment” head unit keeps crashing and getting stuck in a boot loop. It’s done it intermittently since new. The only way to reset it (man, I miss “off” switches) is to stop the car, get out, lock it up, wait like 30 seconds for everything to actually shut down and then get back in and start over.

    1 year old seat = 10 year old infotainment system (hardware/OS) trying to keep up with 5 year old customer demands and a 2 year old UI design (or maybe the demands of a 5 year old customer, i’m never sure).

    Now cross out “infotainment system” and write “self-drive system.” I for one don’t want a Blue Screen Of Death in the third lane of the M6.

    You *do* know that we don’t just write a new label when converting a bought in infotainment system into a dedicated autonomous driving contoller (one reason for the increases in costs of high end graphics cards is that a handful of big players in the autonomous drive space cornered the market for the chips)?

    I mean, it wouldn’t surprise me if certain players were, but none of those taking it seriously do.

    poly
    Free Member

    jhinwxm – did you get stopped and told off by the policeman for driving too fast to work this morning?

    thepurist
    Full Member

    Any autonomous vehicles would have to be specifically designed for the idiosyncrasies of our roads.

    Thread drift, but the example you gave was around RHD/LHD. The market for LHD may be smaller but includes Australia and S Africa, so it’s not negligible and certainly isn’t unique to the UK. What other unique features do you think our road network has that would require special adaptation for an autonomous vehicle?

    crazy-legs
    Full Member

    What other unique features do you think our road network has that would require special adaptation for an autonomous vehicle?

    Catastrophic levels of entitlement and fuckwittery.

    molgrips
    Full Member

    What other unique features do you think our road network has

    A huge single track road network for a start. These don’t exist in many places.

    IdleJon
    Full Member

    I drove out of Swansea on Sunday towards the Gower. Getting out of Swansea is very up and down and I encountered a fit and fast roadie almost immediately. The signage wasn’t clear so I kept at 20 and the traffic was light. On the ups I overtook the cyclist and on the downs / flats he undertook me, this happened 4 or 5 times and both of us had bemused looks on our faces – I would have really liked to know what he was thinking but I expect he thought I was hindering him rather than helping. There are a lot of road cyclist who can comfortably ride at 20, and possibly don’t have the speed metric on the main screen of their computers so are unaware of their true speed, I wonder if they are prepared to slow down too.

    That was very stupid on his part – don’t undertake cars, ever – you can filter alongside stationary or crawling cars, but that’s it.

    Tbf to the poster, I’m guessing they drove out through the Uplands, Killay, etc, which has plenty of traffic lights, and enough queues of stationary cars to make passing on a bike easy, especially while the 10k was blocking the seafront. That’s nothing to do with lowering speed limits, that’s just that road. I’d expect to be pacing traffic for several miles, even on my gravel bike. (Although would probably choose a quieter road…)

    jhinwxm
    Free Member

    jhinwxm – did you get stopped and told off by the policeman for driving too fast to work this morning?

    No. I have a clean driving license. Thank you for your concern though.

    I’m confident everything will work out fine though, as I’m upgrading the cooking pot i’m going to hit with a wooden spoon later to a Le Creuset casserole dish. You wanna see this beauty, pure craftsmanship.

    I was previously using a Dunelm Mill own brand pan which has seen better days, which clearly doesn’t cut it.  Those soothing Le Creuset tones WILL make everything ok, which is pretty damn cool if you ask me.

    gwaelod
    Free Member

    Can’t wait for the 1st “Welsh drivers driving at 20mph” cause TraFiC ChAoS in <randomEnglishTown>” story

    Rich_s
    Full Member

    Not really, it’s when the distance is less than 200 yards. Do you know what 200 yards looks like? Streetlights are always much closer than that in urban areas.

    So – streelights, no sign, 20. That’s it. Remember it.

    Not quite. Second bit is true – streetlights, no sign = 20mph.

    First bit about 200yds isn’t true anymore. It was taken out of the highway code pre 2018 as I was caught out on that at a speed awareness course.

    De law:

    https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
    National speed limits
    The following speed limits apply to all single and dual carriageways with street lights, unless there are signs showing otherwise:

    30 miles per hour (48km/h) in England, Scotland or Northern Ireland
    20 miles per hour (32km/h) in Wales

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    No. I have a clean driving license. Thank you for your concern though.

    I’m confident everything will work out fine though, as I’m upgrading the cooking pot i’m going to hit with a wooden spoon later to a Le Creuset casserole dish. You wanna see this beauty, pure craftsmanship.

    I was previously using a Dunelm Mill own brand pan which has seen better days, which clearly doesn’t cut it. Those soothing Le Creuset tones WILL make everything ok, which is pretty damn cool if you ask me.

    Did anyone else read this with the voice of John Cleese ranting

    molgrips
    Full Member

    First bit about 200yds isn’t true anymore. It was taken out of the highway code pre 2018 as I was caught out on that at a speed awareness course.

    Hmm, that is what I was told on the course as well, but then a lot of official communication seems to have the 200 yards bit in it so I thought that was part of the Welsh legislation.

    200 yards is ages and further apar than streetlights ever are, except maybe the really tall ones on motorway junctions and things. But in such situations the speed limit is obviously not 20.

    thepurist
    Full Member

    A huge single track road network for a start. These don’t exist in many places.

    And what about them will stop an autonomous car from working? Being able to detect an oncoming vehicle and decide whether to proceed or find somewhere to pull in and allow it to pass will be the same issue as driving on normal roads lined with parked vehicles.

    Obviously you currently get the games of brinkmanship where two drivers want the other one to pull over, or where someone is spectacularly incapable of reversing into a gap, but I can’t see anyone programming that behaviour into an autonomous vehicle.

    chrismac
    Full Member

    Hmm, that is what I was told on the course as well, but then a lot of official communication seems to have the 200 yards bit in it so I thought that was part of the Welsh legislation.

    They probably got it wrong. The instructor on my course was adamant her answer was right even if it required the vehicle to defy the laws of physics. She couldn’t get her head round the idea that a decelerating vehicle has a negative force

    slowoldman
    Full Member

    She couldn’t get her head round the idea that a decelerating vehicle has a negative force

    Eh?

    Edukator
    Free Member

    I used to drive a lot of narrow roads in Wales. Getting past other vehicles meant making a judgement about whether the ground was firm enough to support a vehicle, grippy enough to be able to move away again and devoid of objects that would damage the tyres/vehicle. Good luck developing software for that.

    tthew
    Full Member

    She couldn’t get her head round the idea that a decelerating vehicle has a negative force

    Heh, this has just doubled the page count of the thread.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    Eh?

    Glad that was not just me!

    Flaperon
    Full Member

    Any autonomous vehicles would have to be specifically designed for the idiosyncrasies of our roads. That’s not going to happen, we’re not that important a market.

    You just load a different set of training data. Teslas have been sending interesting video clips of edge cases back to HQ for training their neural networks for years.

    Only problem is that in situations where humans routinely break the law, the car will too but in general stuff is universal (eg penalising a model for, say, close passing a cyclist will work just as well here as anywhere else).

    thepurist
    Full Member

    Getting past other vehicles meant making a judgement about whether the ground was firm enough to support a vehicle, grippy enough to be able to move away again and devoid of objects that would damage the tyres/vehicle.

    So pretty similar to what Nasa’s Perseverance rover has been doing on Mars? Of course it’s going a lot slower but the consequences of getting stuck are pretty severe. Also the instruments it uses probably wouldn’t make an affordable vehicle but it shows that the challenge of working out if it’s safe to put a wheel somewhere is solvable.

    I think there are plenty of issues to overcome before we get autonomous vehicles operating throughout the UK, but “special UK roads” isn’t a showstopper.

    molgrips
    Full Member

    Good luck developing software for that.

    That’s what I was talking about, but it’d be the easiest part of the whole problem to ringfence those roads. The santav already knows what they’re like, for the most part. Just route around them as they do now or if you have no choice put up a warning telling the driver they’ll have to drive. And if they don’t take over a few miles before the turning, pull over.

    On the other hand, at least a self driving car would know how to reverse properly. And it in fairness it would probably do a better job of pulling in than 50% of the drivers I see trying to do it. It knows where the edges of the car are. And for that matter, it wouldn’t balk at reversing for a significant distance looking for a decent pull in. So yeah, crack on, actually.

    catfood
    Free Member

    Oh my, the anti 20mph in Wales Facebook pages are absolutely rabid.

    squirrelking
    Free Member

    Japan is RHD as well. Not exactly a small player or market in the auto industry.

    Random example. My Seat has a reversing camera. When you put it in reverse it drops an overlay down the side, covering like a quarter of the view. On the left hand side of the screen. It’s clearly been designed for a left-hand drive car where I’m sure it’s great, but on a RHD it covers up almost all of the kerbside where you’re trying to park. Now imagine that foresight on a self-driving car built in Spain.


    @cougar
    of anyone here I’m surprised you would come in at this angle. That’s not inability, it’s bad implementation of the UI. Same for any other batshit things your Seat does, it’s not representative. My 2016 Focus sometimes gets really upset about cars in front turning and will throw up a crash warning but otherwise works fine. And, get this, they can parallel park in the UK. Your complaint is essentially that mobile browsing will never work because you use the browser on a Nintendo DS.

    This thread is just full of British exceptionalism. Like single track or unpaved roads don’t exist anywhere else in the world. 🙄

    molgrips
    Full Member

    Like single track or unpaved roads don’t exist anywhere else in the world

    No, most people on here are quite well travelled and have seen single track roads in various places. Point is that self driving cars will struggle in any country with such roads, the UK is just one example. But notably the country where most of this development is taking place and what could be it’s biggest market does not have this type of road.

    sanername
    Full Member

    SINGLE TRACK WORLD!!!!

    (sorry, but someone had to)

    squirrelking
    Free Member

    But notably the country where most of this development is taking place and what could be it’s biggest market does not have this type of road.

    Where’s that then?

    burko73
    Full Member

    Interesting to note there’s as many people signed the anti 20mph petition as there are people in Cardiff according to Wales online! I guess the most interesting thing to take from that then is that there’s a very high proportion of the Welsh population that prefer to drive everywhere rather than walk anywhere! I can believe that many people that walk their kids to school anywhere, walk to work or cycle a lot would petition against the 20 mph limit.

    We need more people out of their cars cycling and walking for not just environmental reasons but in wales particularly, for health reasons.

    n0b0dy0ftheg0at
    Free Member

    Are there measures in place to ensure all petition signers actually live in Wales?

    molgrips
    Full Member

    Where’s that then?

    USA innit

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