@tjagain are you ignoring my question because you have realised you are wrong or did you just miss it?

I admire the certainty of tj’s belief in Labour, but question the reality of it

If voting LD would hand victory to the Tories, why don’t Labour stand for Remain?

Is it because a large swathe of the blue collar ground in support they rely on are strongly pro-Brexit?

Is that the skeleton in the cupboard that Corb’s vacillating is hiding?

Why would it be moronic for a Remainer to vote for the only remain party on offer?

It’s been said quite a bit on here, but I really think it’s so important it can’t be said enough. Tactical voting is the only way Brexit is going to be stopped. The only way.

LD will only revoke if they get a majority government. This is incredibly unlikely.

In 2017 the split was:
Conservative 42.4%
Labour 40.0%
LD 7.4%

I know things have changed in the last 2 years, but a LD majority is very very far fetched. Coalition however is much more likely, but then LD won’t revoke.

The best bet is Labour getting in in some form or other. That way a 2nd referendum can happen, as they have stated.

This may not be ideal, but this is the way the system works, and this is how the dice have fallen. There’s no 2nd chance at this.

If Labour are the only true competition to the Torys in your constituency, if you want to remain, you have to vote Labour.

Why would a second referendum have a different result?

Because the prospect of being governed by Europe is much more attractive than leaving these clowns in charge?

If voting LD would hand victory to the Tories, why don’t Labour stand for Remain?

What on earth do those two sentences have to do with each other?

Is it because a large swathe of the blue collar ground in support they rely on are strongly pro-Brexit?

Corbyn is just doing what Cameron did in 2015… and it worked* for him. Promise a referendum to win over voters who don’t actually agree with your policy direction… ‘vote for me and then I’ll give you a chance to vote against my policy on Europe’.

(*he got to play at being PM of a majority government for a year, not sure the rest of us benefited so much)

(If you’re in a Tory/Lab marginal, vote Labour, and then vote against a Labour Brexit next year… please.)

What about that clip from Sky?

I’m thinking Cleverly must have done something more than refuse to be interviewed… KB sounds like she is properly pissed at his attitude after talking to him off set.

OOB – the worst case scenario with voting lib dem in seats they have no chance of winning ie the vast majority of seats ( If I lived in a tory / lib dem marginal I would vote lib dem without hesitation) is that it leads to a try government by splitting the anti tory vote.

Coalition however is much more likely, but then LD won’t revoke.

…but they would support a second ref. So the worst case scenaro voting Libdem if they get balance of power is the same as the best case scenario voting Labour. (From a Remainer POV.)

Because with FPTP second place means nothing.

The focus has to be on winning seats, not getting votes spread across the country.

Disonnance- seriously?

LD are Remain, so appealing to Remainers

Tory are Brexit

Labour are “vote for us, and then we’ll decide what we are”

Labour’s wishy washy stance is not definite enough for a roving vote. They could hoover them all up and be an actual opposition party for the first time in years

No boomer lives.

Labour are ” we will try to negotiate a sensible leave deal and then it will go to the public to decide withing 6 months”

Now you and i may think this a daft idea but thats what it is. clear, concise and nothing like the tory press portray it as or what you claim it is

LD are Remain, so appealing to Remainers

Not really. Outside of their yellow unicorn their referendum options arent defined. So not overly useful.

Labour are “vote for us, and then we’ll decide what we are”

No they are not. Its a clear referendum with a viable leave option vs remain.

They could hoover them all up and be an actual opposition party for the first time in years

You seem confused about what an opposition party actually means. Its not to blindly opposed but to represent their voters. This may or may not match the governing party.

New Deal in 3 months? Three years of pissing about got us exactly here.

Don’t make me laugh.

Which makes a very big assumption about (a) the EU willing to restart negotiations and (b) such a deal being possible, taking into account NI etc.

Considering it most likely would be closer to what the EU would want then it is likely it would work. If it doesnt then can use either Maybots or Johnsons deals.
Either way it will be a clear leave option as opposed to the fantasy leave options offered last time vs remain.

Scotroutes – its a constantly moving target but the EU have made it clear in the past that different red lines mean a different deal is possible ie if labour become a majority and want to negotiate a deal based around a much closer relationship then they would be willing to do so.

Labours starting position removes almost all of the issues around NI because labour want to remain in the customs union and in alignment with EU standards

Its not the position I would like – but its not impossible

But thats the promise from labour – a second ref withing 6 months. On a renegotiated deal if possible, on the existing deal if not

A new deal, if possible?

You are already back pedalling

No I am not. Thats exactly what I have been saying for ages.

I am 50/50 on whether a new deal could be negotiated. Its possible but not certain.

What is certain is that labour would make sure we had a second referendum in 6 months. what is not certain is what the “leave” option will be but the other option will be remain

Kimbers – your take on Peston’s article is wrong; Tories not mucking up their performance on purpose.
His point is that they have been uncoordinated and lack message discipline; that is incompetence, not deliberate.
Moving on to Juncker’s interview with Katya Adler – ‘and he said he did not think Labour’s pledge to renegotiate the withdrawal agreement if it wins a majority in the general election was a realistic approach – although this would be an issue for his successor’.
Sure, he’s on his way out but I doubt he is talking out of turn.

The pissing about was getting deals and then having to get them through parliament.

I thought it was doing **** all for almost 3 years because “it’s going to be easy”, “we hold all the cards”, etc.

The party I joined 50 years ago and which I’ve stuck by in good times and bad has been taken over by an ugly cult.

— The Times (@thetimes) November 5, 2019

I had to re read that a couple of times..