Viewing 40 posts - 6,161 through 6,200 (of 6,291 total)
  • 2019 General Election
  • chewkw
    Member

    As an English Conservative voter, I believe the Scots should be given their second referendum. I can’t understand why we would or should deny it. Its a win win. The Scottish electorate get their say. If they vote to remain in the UK, they prove pretty decisively they want to stay as there would be two confirming votes in a decade, and Sturgeon would have to leave it alone. If they vote to leave, good on them and good luck, it’s their decision. I personally think it would ruin them, but it’s not my say and if its what they want, go for it. It won’t hurt England at all if they do leave (certainly not in the long run), if anything we’ll probably be slightly better off thanks to the Barnet formula.

    Good call.
    Yes, Scotland should have their 2nd referendum and whatever the result so be it.
    Good luck to Scotland either way.

    The party who wouldn’t shut up about IndyRef2 was the Tories. Voters deserted them.

    But Sturgeon said on telly just now it is an indication of IndyRef2? Yes?

    avdave2
    Member

    One possible plus point of the result is we have a Prime Minister who doesn’t really and never has believed in Brexit and is now in no way relying on the votes of the lunatic fringe in is own party. He will have no problem in delivering something far more palatable to those of us who are still wondering what is the problem that Brexit solves. It’s not like he’ll feel any obligation to do irreparable damage to the economy just to keep JRM and his cronies happy. A smaller Tory majority might have actually have tied him down to what he knows is madness but would have delivered anyway to keep in office. His totally unprincipled approach to life and his willingness to betray absolutely anyone might actually work in our favour.

    irc
    Member

    If Boris goes the full 5 years it will be half a century since any Labour leader apart from Tony Blair won a UK general election. Maybe someone more like Blair and less like Corbyn needed?

    Looks like I backed the wrong horse. Should have gone with this for Christmas number 1.

    chewkw
    Member

    Maybe someone more like Blair and less like Corbyn needed?

    Labour will have Keir Starmer as their next leader 🤔

    TiRed
    Member

    FT beat sky to it with % Blue collar Workers and a correlation of over 70%! But the same underlying reasons.

    forzafkawi
    Member

    v8ninety

    Basically it was the thickies and feeble-minded who don’t understand what they are doing

    Don’t forget the terminally selfish and nasty, and sadly decent people who’ve been misled in their droves. Which category do you put yourself in? Seriously, as you only feel able to join the political discourse from the safety of having won, how DO you justify voting for the dishonest, self serving, nasty bunch of **** that you did? Have you got a friend who’s a nurse in Leeds hospital by any chance?

    It’s supercilious people like you that make people like me feel that they have to come and let the World know that not everyone is as misguided as you. Who made you Lord high and mighty?

    TiRed
    Member

    Oh I understand what you guys are saying now. Basically it was the thickies and feeble-minded who don’t understand what they are doing that made the difference for the Tories

    No it’s what the data shows, although correlation doesn’t mean causation. It is clear that in leave areas there was a swing to conservative and in remain there was a swing against (11% in mine). The tendency to favour remain or leave had a very strong age and education component, so the result is not at all surprising. It’s not being pejorative. The voters knew exactly what they were voting for (Brexit delivery). Hardened labour voters had this choice made easier by the quality of the Labour leadership. They didn’t trust Corbyn so leant Conservatives their vote to Get Brexit Done. I don’t have a problem with any of that.

    Premier Icon dannyh
    Subscriber

    No more politics posts from me, I’m out.

    It’s every man for himself and **** everyone else. The Tory way.

    This was ‘our’ last chance to avert the car crash. No way out now. No Brexit will be hard enough for the racists, no Brexit will be soft enough not to be economically damaging. This fantasy bollocks will not last five minutes when it comes to real negotiations. The only question now is ‘how **** are we?’

    The world has given up laughing at us, we aren’t worth it any more.

    daveylad
    Member

    I’m a bad winner for sure. Lefties? Hahahahahahahahahaha suck it up losers! Great day for democracy.

    Premier Icon somafunk
    Subscriber

    Especially if you’re russian ^

    Premier Icon BoardinBob
    Subscriber

    Seriously, as you only feel able to join the political discourse from the safety of having won

    It is indeed very noticeable that these plamphs only crawl out of the woodwork after they’ve won

    Premier Icon colournoise
    Subscriber

    Totally stunned, but sadly not surprised, by the gloaters and taunters crawling out now they’ve ‘won’.

    Take a look at yourselves FFS. Unless you’re actually five years old this behaviour just makes you look ridiculous…

    Just another reflection of the new normal I guess. Welcome to 1930 everyone.

    As a teacher I often come here to take my mind off having dealt with kids and their lack of social awareness all day, but in all seriousness I’ve had many more thoughtful political discussions with 14 year olds today than I’m seeing here from some posters.

    (FWIW, in our mock election this week my year group (10) voted 69% Labour, 11% Lib Dem, 11% Green, 8% Conservative and 1% spoiled ballots).

    Premier Icon cakeandcheese
    Subscriber

    Gloaters: are you old, or poorly educated, or perhaps both? In none, do you aspire to be either?

    As I may have mentioned at the time of the referendum, the U.K. has seemingly proven that the modal level of education has fallen behind the mean.

    mefty
    Member

    Johnson may be untrustworthy, but on the issue of Brexit he had earned the trust of the electorate and that was all he was selling – he had ruthlessly pursued it by proroguing parliament and expelling MPs – and that showed his determination to deliver. Having developed that trust, all he had to do was ask permission from the electorate to pursue his aims and he got it. He didn’t need to do anymore because his opposition hadn’t bothered to do the spade work of earning trust and contented itself with lecturing in platitudes, who would trust them to achieve anything?

    This doesn’t make it a Brexit election, he just didn’t need to do more because he was lucky in his opponents.

    Premier Icon Poopscoop
    Subscriber

    @Rusty Spanner

    Your post very much vocalises how I feel. I’m angry, saddened, worried and… Not even sure of the rest.

    In truth I’m not entirely happy about how I feel at the moment. I’ve made a habit of telling myself that most people, on the whole, are fundamentally decent.

    I can still, just about, say that to myself as the Tories gained less than 50% of the vote. I’m clutching at straws here though and I know it.

    In all honestly I’m doing a lot of soul searching to make sense of this and im struggling. I have to question, are my preconceptions of decency and mortality wrong? Should the strong and mortally flexible thrive at the cost of the weak? Right or wrong, that seems to be how it’s playing out. I just can’t find it within myself to think that is correct… That it’s how it should be.

    I very much feel an alien in my own country. I thought better of us.

    BJ’s “healing” speech outside No.10 brought back Thatcher’s one when she gained power. I don’t need to elaborate on that.

    Never realised how bloody lucky I/we were before 2016.

    Premier Icon v8ninety
    Subscriber

    It’s supercilious people like you that make people like me feel that they have to come and let the World know that not everyone is as misguided as you.

    Well, there’s some learning for me right there. Hard to know how not to come across as ‘supercilious’ when I’m just so gobsmacked and saddened that so many decent and good people (I’m talking people I know rather than on here, but I’d imagine it’s across the board) can be persuaded by the blurred, non specific mirage of a message offered by the Cons that they offer actually anything at all for them. I GET why people haven’t been enthused by Labour, but I don’t get how people can be so unenthused by them that the think the Tories are better.

    New Years resolution; be less supercilious…

    I very much feel an alien in my own country. I thought better of us.

    This is how I feel too.

    Premier Icon Kryton57
    Subscriber

    Take a look at yourselves FFS. Unless you’re actually five years old this behaviour just makes you look ridiculous…

    That statement equally applies to the sulkers in here.  I’ve never seen such a wave of self inflicted misery and it defies intelligence that you’d do that to yourselves.

    kerley
    Member

    To me it is just more of the same. Thatcher got in when I was 11 and all I have seen since then are tory governments and a pretend labour government. The country is clearly a tory voting country and that explains why we have the issues we have.
    The current tory government won’t be any worse than thatcher, yes they will do different things but equally bad with very, very little good.

    I am very protected from it all which is why I still live here I suppose.

    kerley
    Member

    I’m a bad winner for sure. Lefties? Hahahahahahahahahaha suck it up losers! Great day for democracy.

    You are a loser when it comes to being a troll, you are crap at it.

    cooie
    Member

    Self inflicted?

    Premier Icon Kryton57
    Subscriber

    Self inflicted?

    on the basis they are winding themselves up to doom and gloom.    None of us really know what’ll happen in our worlds tomorrow even, so to drive yourself down to such pronounced level of depression is really silly.   Like I said earlier in this thread or the other, why inflict that on yourselves or your families?  Wake up, get on with things and stop worrying yourselves to an illness.

    cooie
    Member

    And there we are, selfishness knows no bounds.

    athgray
    Member

    As a teacher I often come here to take my mind off having dealt with kids and their lack of social awareness all day, but in all seriousness I’ve had many more thoughtful political discussions with 14 year olds today than I’m seeing here from some posters.

    I too am a teacher, and the election was discussed by the 14 year olds I teach. I too was taken by their level headedness, knowledge and political engagement.

    Steelfreak
    Member

    Worth remembering that Tory voters are very much in the minority, given that only about two-thirds of the electorate bothered to vote and of those who did vote, the majority did NOT vote for Fridgeboy.

    DrJ
    Member

    To me it is just more of the same. Thatcher got in when I was 11 and all I have seen since then are tory governments and a pretend labour government. The country is clearly a tory voting country and that explains why we have the issues we have.
    The current tory government won’t be any worse than thatcher, yes they will do different things but equally bad with very, very little good.

    I am very protected from it all which is why I still live here I suppose.

    I think that describes my thoughts almost exactly, except that for the most part I have not lived here, and may be obliged to move again if/when the Patel-squad come round and throw MrsJ out of the country.

    DrJ
    Member

    Johnson may be untrustworthy, but on the issue of Brexit he had earned the trust of the electorate

    … by considering backing Remain before the referendum? By voting for May’s WAG when it suited his personal ambition to do so, having voted aginst it (alongside the Remainers) twice?

    5thElefant
    Member

    Worth remembering that Tory voters are very much in the minority, given that only about two-thirds of the electorate bothered to vote and of those who did vote, the majority did NOT vote for Fridgeboy.

    And equally Labour voters only make up 1 in 5 people. Gives you hope for humanity eh?

    Premier Icon boomerlives
    Subscriber

    Take a look at yourselves FFS

    Both sides need to take a look at themselves.

    The Tory lot gloating, Labour saying it was because everyone is ‘thick’ or ‘poorly educated’

    Politics of finger pointing; it’s low

    Premier Icon greenskin
    Subscriber

    I’d argue the rage some are exhibiting is a projection of something else. Go get yourself to some talking therapy, might help ease whatever it is that’s hurting you. Or you know, keep screaming on the internet…

    baboonz
    Member

    Why are you all struggling to understand that nobody wanted Corbyn? It was said lots of times in this thread yet you wouldn’t listen.

    Many people I know that wouldn’t ever talk about politics would actually mention how they were disgusted and feared what Corbyn and his followers could cause whilst in power.

    You lot are supposed to be tolerant, but at the moment are acting like bigots.

    H1ghland3r
    Member

    Have stayed away from this thread so far as I didn’t really feel I had anything to contribute that hadn’t already been said but I’ve been thinking, on and off, since the election result and I realised that in the, very nearly, 30 years, that I’ve been voting, my vote in national elections has counted for something exactly 0 times.
    As a resident in Scotland the system of PR (Proportional representation) that elects our MSP’s means that, in that particular forum, I feel I have a level of representation.

    The thing I am having trouble coming to terms with this time, is that our system of election has resulted in a huge majority for a single party after a swing towards them of only 1% since the last time.! How can that be fair or representative.? How can it be that a single party can have such overwhelming control of Parliament with a share of the vote in the region of 48% (is it just me or do the numbers 48 and 52 just keep on popping up in elections since 2016..???)

    Is anyone able to explain why FPTP is still a fair system in this day and age where local issues are a tiny percentage of matters discussed in Parliament and such a huge segment of the electorate are completely unrepresented.?

    5thElefant
    Member

    Is anyone able to explain why FPTP is still a fair system in this day and age where local issues are a tiny percentage of matters discussed in Parliament and such a huge segment of the electorate are completely unrepresented.?

    Did you enjoy the recent hung parliament? Fringe nutters as king makers and nothing getting done?

    Admittedly when they can’t do anything they can’t balls as much up. You might be on to something…

    I’m seeing a lot of people failing to acknowledge reality.
    The people who do see the world as it is are the ones who just won the election.

    H1ghland3r
    Member

    Did you enjoy the recent hung parliament? Fringe nutters as king makers and nothing getting done?

    Admittedly when they can’t do anything they can’t balls as much up. You might be on to something…

    To be honest, given the way the main parties have moved towards the extremes of left and right, a hung parliament was the best I could hope for. Surely that just highlights my point though.? Throughout the world system of PR have forced politicians to (re)learn how to work together to get things done, FPTP has encouraged this kind of confrontational, territorial politics where the winner does what they want, no-one else gets a say, eventually they become unpopular and are voted out only for the newly elected party to act exactly the same way and spend most of their time undoing what was done by the previous government and so it goes, on and on. Doesn’t FPTP simply encourage a system where effectively nothing gets done, it’s just better hidden than a PR elected Parliament that hasn’t yet learned to work together and represent everyone.?

    pipm1
    Member

    Petition up here for getting rid of proportional representation here:

    Westminster’s voting system is bankrupt. It’s time for proportional representation

    But the chances of the Conservatives doing anything about it are probably zero, seeing as it serves them well + the electorate chose not to reform it the last time.

    Also, the polls, predictions & the trends we’ve all been seeing in the run up to the election before the exit polls came in… they were slightly inaccurate weren’t they!

    5thElefant
    Member

    No party that has just won by FTP wants PR. It will never happen.

    I’d rather get rid of government entirely. We don’t need more laws. If anything crops up in the future we can have a vote to see if we need one again.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    I’m seeing a lot of people failing to acknowledge reality.

    Oh I think we’re more than aware of the reaility. It’s a reality where crowing, self-interested and uncaring ***** like 5thElephant are in control. And they’re in control because of a system which is stacked in their favour, from constituency boundaries, bias in the media, the power of lobbyists, party funding rules and everything else. The entire edifice is designed to keep the people who care about others away from power. The people who won the election are not the ones who see the world as it is, they’re the ones who made it as it is, and unsurprisingly they continue to benefit from it.

    H1ghland3r
    Member

    The PR numbers in an article about that petition are what prompted my thinking. But you are right, the chances of actually getting a fair voting system are very low when coming from our current system as, by design, the winner of a general election feels that they best represent the country and that the system that got them voted obviously works. Until it becomes enough of an issue that a party can get elected in the current system on a manifesto of changing the current system then it won’t ever happen. Even if (in some alternate universe) the LibDems managed to get elected on another issue (lets say, as a thought experiment, that Brexit turns out to be a disaster, the LibDems organise sufficiently to be able to turn the ultimate instance of ‘we told you so’ into an election win. They still have PR as a bullet point on their manifesto although I believe it gets pushed further and further down the list every election). Does anyone actually believe that a newly elected government would change the very system that got them elected.? That takes some serious political morality.
    The only way I can see it happening is by it being the main issue in an election or a separate referendum (to be clear I think referenda in a representative democracy are a terrrible, terrible idea), and what are the chances of something as mundane as the system of voting being the main concern of government in any of our lifetimes..?

    5thElefant
    Member

    Oh I think we’re more than aware of the reaility. It’s a reality where crowing, self-interested and uncaring ***** like 5thElephant are in control.

    Oi! I’ve got a proper job.

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