2019 General Election

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  • 2019 General Election
  • Premier Icon kelvin
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    Ask a previous Tory Prime Minister…

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/05/john-major-nhs-risk-brexit-pythons-johnson-and-gove

    However, he went on to claim Gove had wanted to privatise the NHS, Johnson wished to charge people for health services and Duncan Smith advocated moving to a social insurance system.

    “The NHS is about as safe with them as a pet hamster would be with a hungry python”

    Premier Icon somafunk
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     daveylad :Near 50 and never more anti labour. If I was poor and/or northern maybe, or expect the state to support me, but im none of these. Boris it is 🙂
    Wipe yer tears haters!!

    47 here, spent the past 26 years of my life scrimping and living on disability benefits due to severe spinal injury back in 1991 but i have always worked as much as possible despite a multitude of problems over the years, for the past 3 years i have been going downhill very fast with secondary progressive multiple sclerosis, which was undiagnosed till i demanded a second opinion, then a final third opinion back in 2017 where i was told i most likely have have had MS undiagnosed/untreated for the past 20+ years…There was a possibility of getting onto a genetic modification study to alter the gut microbiome/immune system to slow down the progression and isolate the damage in my brain but thanks to the brexit vote that was cancelled. I guess I’m being honest when i say i have not got too long to go before i decide to pull the plug, got my exit plan in place long ago, my family/close friends understand my reasoning for this. Im fiercely independent and absolutely hate the fact that i need help for pretty much everything these days and whilst i still have use of my hands that is fading fast, numbness/ tingling/ feeling like my body is on fire one minute then freezing cold the next minute, muscle spasms that lock me rigid yet all they can offer is heavy sedation so whats the point?.

    You sound like a good candidate for testing my exit procedure, care to offer me your address so i can end your **** selfish life you utter **** prick, you are playing with peoples lives, this is not merely a game to those you look down upon.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    Near 50 and never more anti labour. If I was poor and/or northern maybe,

    Some people are poor though. Don’t you care about what happens to them? Don’t you want to help them improve their lives?

    So would a Tory voter, so would a Tory Government

    You do realise that the NHS funding has risen an average of 4% pa since it’s inception. This Tory government has averaged .5% pa. That is not a Tory government willing to spend on the NHS. Except during election campaigns. Never when they are actually government.

    we’re been told the Torys will sell of the NHS and every time they don’t.

    They sold off the blood plasma unit to an offshoot of Mitt Romney’s empire. The unit that had remained in govt hands precisely because of fears over the safety of the supply in private hands. Bain capital bought it for 200 million, held for a couple of years and then sold it for 800 million. Know who owns it now? The Chinese.

    NHS spending on private providers has doubled since 2010. It’s their 2012 Care act that makes it possible for private companies to sue the NHS if they are prevented from bidding to run profitable bits.

    Wouldn’t sell it off my left bollock. Do you get this stuff straight from Dom Cummings email blasts?

    MSP
    Member

    Huge chunks of NHS service delivery have been sold off, that has been the major contributor to inefficiency in the past 10 years, not the fabled army of bureaucracy. For the tories the NHS has become a major tool for syphoning tax payers money into private hands.

    Premier Icon colournoise
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    The demographic thing is interesting to me and I have an obvious theory.

    I’m 49 and have never voted any further right-wing than lib dem (back when there was still a glint of actual liberal in them). Those of us my age and fiercely anti-tory will have grown up during the 80s and will have come of voting age at the heights of Maggie’s power.

    Anyone with even a smudge of humanity will have seen what that government did to the working class I grew up as part of, even if they weren’t directly affected by it. I have no idea how you could live through that and still think a Tory government has any empathy for the 99% at all.

    I think (hope) that the boomers may well be the last majority ‘automatic’ Tory voters we see for a while until the circle turns again. Gen X and onwards will hopefully be increasingly empathetic and community-minded in their political choices…

    Plus Scotland’s had tax raising powers for yonks now and they *still* haven’t put income tax up to be significantly more than the rest of uk.

    My P60 would disagree with that, SRIT is a thing. Unless you want them to tax everyone to the hilt which nobody has proposed.

    Premier Icon frankconway
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    Couple of humble brags on previous page from a couple of wealthy/talented/gifted members who grace these pages with their presence.
    I call both bullshit.
    If they were both wealthy, as they claim, why not become paid-up subscribers?
    With their wealth, the subscription costs would be an irrelevance to them.
    Yawn.

    Premier Icon kimbers
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    The oldies are screwing us all

    Premier Icon colournoise
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    kimbers
    The oldies are screwing us all

    (prays for snow, or just a cold snap)

    Premier Icon frankconway
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    Kimbers – don’t get carried away; those numbers are meaningless.
    Total sample size; sample size for each age group; unequal age bands; split by each group by gender – would be helpful in attaching any meaning or relevance.

    Premier Icon slowoldman
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    Well there you have it. The reason we are in the shit right now is the likes of daveylad. Oh sorry, was that a personal attack?

    Premier Icon Del
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    The English are selfish bastards who would rather vote to keep another 1p in their wallets and purses than pay extra to fund public services

    Thanks for that. Popping back a couple of pages to report your post.

    Premier Icon kelvin
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    those numbers are meaningless

    Come on Frank, show us one single study/poll/survey that suggests anything other than older people are far more likely to support both Brexit and the Conservatives… taking away rights and opportunities from young people.

    If they were both wealthy, as they claim, why not become paid-up subscribers?
    With their wealth, the subscription costs would be an irrelevance to them.

    How d’you think they got rich? It’s pretty well known that the rich got rich by being tight and are less likely to give to charity, pay for stuff they don’t have to etc.

    Premier Icon frankconway
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    Kelvin, I’m one of the ‘older people’ and I can state categorically that almost everyone I know in my age bracket are unequivocal remainers, irrespective of their party political allegiance.
    How many ‘older people’ do you know and how much/little do you know about their political views?
    Polls/studies/surveys are much devalued as a result of their proven unreliability.
    Are you seriously suggesting that ‘older voters’ are deliberately taking away ‘rights and opportunities from younger people’?
    In answering that question it would be helpful if you could explain what you mean by ‘taking away rights and opportunities…..’; what rights, what opportunities?

    Well that’s timely. The Observer has learned that patient data has been sold to US pharma Giants by the NHS.

    You keep clinging to your fantasy that’s it’s not for sale though.

    Premier Icon slowoldman
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    Of course it’s for sale. Under free market capitalism, everything is, if the price is right.

    Premier Icon frankconway
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    cromoly – think we’re both agreed that their claims of wealth are bullshit.

    PJM1974
    Member

    I was 50 this year and have never voted conservative, and hope to christ I never have to. But, and it’s a big but, suppose one day something worse comes along and looks like it might take your seat?

    If you’re juggling with the morality of 130,000 dead benefits claimants and the shitshow that is Breixt, may I suggest that we’ve hit rock bottom?

    Near 50 and never more anti labour. If I was poor and/or northern maybe, or expect the state to support me, but im none of these. Boris it is 🙂
    Wipe yer tears haters!!

    You seem nice. Hope that you don’t catch some disease that requires expensive medication.

    Premier Icon kelvin
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    How many ‘older people’ do you know and how much/little do you know about their political views?

    Plenty. But I still only know a tiny number compared to the millions of voters. Just like you. Your experience does not equal data. Older people are FAR more likely to be proBrexit and proTory, both of which are removing rights and opportunities from younger people. Every single survey shows this. Show me some ‘meaningful’ numbers that suggest otherwise.

    Are you seriously suggesting that ‘older voters’ are deliberately taking away ‘rights and opportunities from younger people’?

    Some think that they are not. Some think that it’ll only effect young people that they don’t know. Some don’t care even when it effects young people they do know. Some think the young have ‘got it too easy these days’. Some think it is a price worth paying, if they don’t have to hear bilingual people in their market towns. Some think it is ‘all about priorities’, and their priorities are different to that of younger folk.

    scotroutes
    Member

    The English are selfish bastards who would rather vote to keep another 1p in their wallets and purses than pay extra to fund public services

    Thanks for that. Popping back a couple of pages to report your post.

    Did you even bother to read the post preceding it?

    think we’re both agreed that their claims of wealth are bullshit.

    Maybe – I’ll stay on their good side just in case they aren’t – and they decide to spread it around.

    Premier Icon rone
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    If you want the government to concentrate wealth, carve up the nation’s services and protect your own personal empire (although that’s only relevant if you’re absolutely loaded) then it’s the Tories.

    If you want to reverse the sickening downward slog of free-market economics, support the struggling, and give the country a direction and a chance then it’s Labour.

    Corbyn is a good man, a fighter and exactly what we need right now – despite his character assassination from the centrists/right (Guardian you are culpable) who have helped undermine him – he’s still here offering the majority of people a direction of hope.

    Oh and see what is happening to the Libdem’s? Pretty much falling apart because they based their entire campaign on Brexit, Jo’s ego and the silly idea that centrism would be a vote winner in these desperate times was always misguided and distracting.

    (Oh and all you tactical voters – fair play.)

    piemonster
    Member

    You seem nice

    What he seemed like was a Troll trying to trigger the snowflakes*

    *AKA people not totally devoid of empathy/morality and who want to see an improvement in the quality of life for the vast majority

    kerley
    Member

    f they were both wealthy, as they claim, why not become paid-up subscribers?
    With their wealth, the subscription costs would be an irrelevance to them

    The subscription cost is as irrelevant to me as most people who post here I would imagine. However I have no interest in paying it and would rather give the money to something more worthwhile thanks.

    It’s pretty well known that the rich got rich by being tight and are less likely to give to charity, pay for stuff they don’t have to etc.

    Nice generalisation. You haven’t got a clue what I do but you carry on thinking that if it makes you feel better.

    kerley
    Member

    What he seemed like was a Troll trying to trigger the snowflakes

    Sadly not a troll I suspect. There are a lot of people who think like that. I am surrounded by tories at work and where I live and the general thinking is that the poor/less fortunate have simply not worked or tried as hard as they have.
    They have no **** clue that they are where they are mostly down to luck and privilege, no clue at all.

    kjcc25
    Member

    I’m 67, a remainer and probably going to vote Labour although I did want to vote Liberal but that may allow the Conservatives into power so I will do a bit of tactical voting. I have very strong concerns regarding the leadership of the Labour Party and their policies however I am far more worried about the Conservatives winning with their lack of policies and the threat of leaving the EU with no deal.
    I do feel however that some comments on here regarding Thatcher and blaming her for the destruction of British industry is a bit of a myth, British industry destroyed itself during the 60’s and 70’s through bad management and the overwhelming power of the unions. The other thing that many younger people forget and certainly didn’t experience was the failure of nationalization it didn’t work then and I doubt very much if it will work in the future, if Labour do get into power.

    One question, if the coal mines had been kept open over the last thirty years would Corbyn be fighting to close them now because of climate change or is he secretly thankful to Thatcher that she did the job for him?

    kiksy
    Member

    One question, if the coal mines had been kept open over the last thirty years would Corbyn be fighting to close them now because of climate change or is he secretly thankful to Thatcher that she did the job for him?

    I’d assume he’d close them down, but in an orderly manner and invest heavily in a transition to green industries to replace the loss of jobs from the mine closures.

    Essentially what the 2019 Manifesto states.

    You do realise that the NHS funding has risen an average of 4% pa since it’s inception. This Tory government has averaged .5% pa.

    Indeed. Yet in spite of that desperate level of underfunding Labour decided on a wafer thin increase of 3bn. Labour are also going to chronically underfund the NHS and it’s not because they don’t have the cash – they claim they had 58bn spare.

    Have you read anything written by any of the current government about how provision of, and payment for, healthcare should be transformed in future.

    People have spent the last three decades saying the Tory’s are going to privatize the NHS during every election campaign (and at times in between). All that crying wolf means nobody believes they are going to do it this time – to the point where people trust the Torys on the NHS more than Labour.

    This is not just another Tory Government about to be elected,

    So all the other times you said they were going to privatise the NHS they didn’t. But this time they really, really are, you really, really promise.

    Not an easy message to sell!

    I’d assume he’d close them down,

    You’re right – Harold Wilson closed over twice as many mines as Thatcher. Between WW1 and today we all basically stopped using Coal and switched to Gas/Oil/Nuclear.

    Every prime minister from WW1 onwards closed mines, by the time Thatcher took over the days of coal were already well in the past.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    the silly idea that centrism would be a vote winner in these desperate times

    It’s FPTP, so in most seats, as the election nears, people swing towards the top two candidates in their seats. In an ideal world… most of these swing people in Tory/Labour battle grounds would be coming over to Labour… but many are going to the Conservatives, even if they are against Brexit and don’t want Johnson in no10. If Labour could appeal to a wider a section of the public, they would be walking this election. If the take away from losing this election is “centrism* is a vote loser, let’s further abandon voters who aren’t left wing enough for us”, there won’t be a Labour government again in our lifetimes.

    [* whatever the hell that means]

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    People have spent the last three decades saying the Tory’s are going to privatize the NHS

    If by “people” you mean people who are now ministers, then you have got the point, well done.

    So all the other times you said they were going to privatise the NHS they didn’t. But this time they really, really are, you really, really promise.

    Not an easy message to sell!

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Someone gives you a specific example of privatisation in the NHS (plasma), and you stick your heads back in the sand, talk about “crying wolf”, and repeat the propaganda. Multiple governments have privatised vital chunks of the NHS… it is a process not a one off event.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/how-bio-products-our-blood-plasma-supplier-ended-up-with-china-zg00fthqn

    It’s FPTP, so in most seats, as the election nears, people swing towards the top two candidates in their seats. In an ideal world… most of these swing people in Tory/Labour battle grounds would be coming over to Labour… but many are going to the Conservatives, even if they are against Brexit and don’t want Johnson in no10. If Labour could appeal to a wider a section of the public, they would be waking this election.

    This. The Tory party is an omnishambles and has been for years. (Even if they weren’t 9 years in Government *alone* would be enough to condemn most Governments to lose just out of voter feeling it’s ‘time for change’.)

    Any Labour leadership since Foot would be looking at a landslide right now. The only thing that could have saved the Torys is Corbyn/Abbot/McDonnell.

    Multiple governments have privatised vital chunks of the NHS… it is a process not a one off event.

    I’d agree. The NHS is effectively 7pc “private”. 1pc of that was done under various Tory Governments over the years 6pc under the Blair government.

    So you’re not saying the NHS will be completely privatized. You’re saying some stuff may be outsourced as it always has been. eg the NHS doesn’t mine the minerals that go into drugs.

    Now you’ve qualified your claim, what percentage of the NHS are you estimating will be private after a Blue term in office, and what percentage are you estimating will be private after a Corbyn/Momentum term in office?

    Premier Icon kimbers
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    Corbyn & co may have baggage but the rw press painted Milliband as dangerous commie too, even tho some of his ‘redisst’ policies have since been adopted by the Tories!

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