2019 General Election

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  • 2019 General Election
  • I have 🙂

    It’s a complete clustercuss from one end to another; side to side

    Not sure I agree. Neo-liberalism is going great. The EU and the USA are thriving. The bits of China that are economically succesful are the places that are permitted liberal economics.

    Even Bennites (Corbyn/MacDonnel/Abbot) accept that we should stay in the EU now. Neo-liberalism has totally won the argument.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    What?! You mean there’s going to be No Independent Socialist Republic of Grand Brittania after all?

    I’ve bought a comradely hat and grown a little beard and everyfink

    am just wondering how to vote atm as unfortunately when i go on the tactical voting sites it says that where i live (devizes) is a safe tory seat 😟.

    am thinking labour is the only option for me to vote as lib dems wouldn’t have enough chance where i am.

    apologies for not reading this thread before (it is er quite large now at 110 plus pages) but i definitely do not want to vote tory (or ever have) especially with all the **** that is happening now.

    i will keep on looking at the tactical voting sites up till voting day to see if any change.

    thanks 👍

    kerley
    Member

    Who came second in 2017, who came second in 2015 ? If they were second comfortably then go with that. In my case that is Labour in a safe Tory seat. They haven’t got a chance in hell (Tory 66%, Labour 20%) and I am tempted to vote Green which is who I support so at least they get another vote in the big scheme of things.

    Just checked Devizes and very similar to my position.

    ransos
    Member

    Although, amusingly, it’s not good enough to supply the Scottish Public sector:

    Who do you think is collecting, cleaning and distributing the water?

    thanks Kerley will do that 👍

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
    Subscriber

    What?! You mean there’s going to be No Independent Socialist Republic of Grand Brittania after all?

    I’ve bought a comradely hat and grown a little beard and everyfink

    What in the name of Jesus H Corbett are you blathering about now?

    Premier Icon Greybeard
    Subscriber

    does anyone know if it’s possible to get a tactical vote flyer for your window?

    I want to put one up to show i’m tactic voting, to encourage others.

    If you put it in your window, it’s going to be seen by people in your area, who have the same voting choice as you. So say WHO you’re tactically voting for – for tactical voting to work, all the tactical voters need to have the same view about which party has the best chance of defeating your disliked party.
    PS – don’t do that if you’re voting tactically because you want the Tories to win a majority.

    dannyh
    Member

    @cinnamon_girl

    I promised I wouldn’t come back at you directly, so I won’t.

    I respect your honesty.

    fUlLy cOStEd…

    Also, when TF is Johnson going to go before Andrew Neil? I mean, it couldn’t be as bad as Corbyn, shirley? So, what’s he got to lose?

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    The trolls running the Conservative online campaign have final withdrawn the rule breaking ads using (and misrepresenting) BBC footage. Considering the people working with them, I’m not convinced their aims aren’t as much about further eroding trust in the BBC as they are about winning votes. I’m seeing the Neil thing in the same light… avoid a difficult interview and damage the standing of the BBC in one highly dodgy move. Shows the BBC who’s boss. Classic Trump/Putin play.

    Premier Icon rone
    Subscriber

    Not sure I agree. Neo-liberalism is going great

    It’s going great for a select few which gets smaller and smaller over time.

    That’s the nature of it.

    We wouldn’t be entertaining the possibility of a socialist government if it was going great.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Neo-liberalism is going great. The EU and the USA are thriving.

    You what?

    If you look at GDP then sure. If you look at how the economy benefits the majority of people living in it, then it’s a total failure. The rich are getting richer and the poor relatively are getting poorer. Is this your idea of ‘going great’ ?

    The only reason you could think that is if you think the poor deserve what they get. Which is flat out wrong, and insulting to millions of hard working yet poor people.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    We wouldn’t be entertaining the possibility of a socialist government if it was going great.

    I’m afraid most people aren’t Rone. Well, not to the degree being offered at this election. I’m all for it… the British Public are not. “Not the Tories but not advised by far left communist millionaires” is what’s required to get the consent of the public for more left wing policies this decade. Improve and reform, not revolution. Might be boring, but might also win public support.

    We wouldn’t be entertaining the possibility of a socialist government if it was going great.

    One tiny country in the entire world. The EU’s not, the USA is not, even China abandons state ownership in the places it designates as places that are going to economically flourish.

    The strong trend is away from socialism, not towards it.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    One tiny country in the entire world. The EU’s not, the USA is not, even China abandons state ownership in the places it designates as places that are going to economically flourish.

    The strong trend is away from socialism, not towards it.

    You are the most astonishing mental gymnast.

    Many countries in the EU is already democratic-socialist. China is moving in from hardline communism towards a middle ground. Seems reasonable that we could also move in towards the middle from the right.

    Politics is a spectrum. So, too far left is bad (China), too far right is also bad (US, UK), but good is between those two (democratic socialism). So yes to private enterprise, but with state oversight so the rich and powerful don’t take the piss (USA and potentially the future UK).

    Premier Icon slowoldman
    Subscriber

    Very much what molgrips says, certainly re. EU countries.

    re. EU countries.

    EU is solidly Neo Liberal – it’s a neo-liberal club for rich nations. They’re making it compulsory to allow private train firms on networks. The whole thing exists to deregulate trade. Why do you think lefties hate it so much? Greece. Not one EU member has an NHS. Christ the TTIP had all my socialist friends going mad on FB. The markets love it. The EU bans state owned monopolies & prevents many subsidies.

    Brexiteers aren’t arguing for leaving because it’s too socialist. Quite the opposite, if Labour win this election and go down the Brexit route it’s going to make their policies (manifesto and otherwise) far easier to carry out.

    The one good thing that’s come out of Brexit is literally everyone now agrees that the liberal economics of the EU is good for the economy – Brexiteers accept the case for leaving isn’t economic and remainers all accept the case for remaining *is* economic.

    I’d be genuinely interested in any credible source claiming the EU is remotely left wing, can you find one? [1] It’s a free marketeers dream and it’s “helped” some very left wing governments see the light and adopt some pretty fiscally tight policies.

    [1] Here’s one the other way by way of a trade: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2017/07/lexit-eu-neoliberal-project-so-lets-do-something-different-when-we-leave-it

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    You know what happened to TTIP? Yes?

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    I’d be genuinely interested in any credible source claiming the EU is remotely left wing

    Economically? Probably not. But at the same time, people are complaining about all the additional rules and regulations – so that makes it ‘large government’ doesn’t it, which would make it a bit more left wing. All that environmental legislation (one of the things I’m keen on) is not neoliberal.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union?
    Social Chapter?

    Are they neoliberal?
    Tory governments opt out of such EU measures because they are not neoliberal? No?

    You know what happened to TTIP? Yes?

    Not in any detail. AFAIC they couldn’t get agreement from all the member states so it went ‘No deal’.

    TTIP wasn’t really that popular with socialists:

    Another example of the neoliberal essence of the project is given by the secretive negotiations for the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP), a free trade deal the EU is brokering with the US. TTIP will further prise open sectors such as education and health to the multinationals, and equalise environmental protection and workers’ rights at the lowest level across the two regions.

    http://socialistreview.org.uk/404/eu-referendum-should-we-stay-or-should-we-go

    (Worth reading the whole article.)

    Oh yeah, the Labour party campaigned against entry in the 70’s and campaigned to leave in ’83. Hard to see why the Labour party in its clause four days would have wanted to avoid membership if they thought it was a decent socialist enterprise!

    Anyway I’ve googled and I can’t find anything that suggests the EU is anything other than Neo-Liberal, and not remotely socialist. It’s all about private ownership, fiscal rectitude, liberalizing trade and providing a cheap workforce to the wealthier nations. Remainers will tell you these are all good things, but they aren’t socialism, they are the diametric opposite.

    Unless someone provides a link that credibly argues the EU is opposed to Liberal economics I’m not going reply on the subject of “is the EU neo-liberal” again. [1] I feel I’m wasting my time having to make the case that an organization that exists to liberalize markets isn’t a bastion of liberal economics. 😀

    [1] Ovbs I’ll be posting on the thread, I’m addicted

    ctk
    Member

    Unless someone provides a link that credibly argues the EU is opposed to Liberal economics I’m not going reply on this topic again. I feel I’m wasting my time having to make the case that an organization that exists to liberalize markets isn’t a bastion of liberal economics.

    LOLZ and Bojo wont have another drink til Brexit is done.

    (Bet you do post)

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Unless someone provides a link that credibly argues the EU is opposed to Liberal economics I’m not going reply on this topic again.

    No one is ‘opposed to Liberal economics’.

    TTIP didn’t happen because the USA neoliberal measures in it were rejected by EU countries.

    Read up on Social Chapter and the EU regulations and standards that the neoliberals have fought against all the way.

    ctk
    Member

    Got a flyer from the Tories that is pretending to be a womans weekly magazine. Completely immoral imo.

    Only the return address tells me its from the Tories. (& all the bullshit content obvz)

    Unless someone provides a link that credibly argues the EU is opposed to Liberal economics I’m not going reply on this topic again. I feel I’m wasting my time having to make the case that an organization that exists to liberalize markets isn’t a bastion of liberal economics.

    (Bet you do post)

    That’s awkward. When I said topic I didn’t mean thread. Post edited for clarity. 🙂

    Drug prices, UK vs USA

    💉 Insulin
    🇬🇧 £16.61 🇺🇸 £215.30
    🔺 1300%

    🥜 Epipen 300mg
    🇬🇧 £52.90 🇺🇸 £523
    🔺 1000%

    💓 Statin 10mg
    🇬🇧 £0.46 🇺🇸 £4.50
    🔺 980%

    Trump and his Big Pharma cronies want to put up drug prices in our NHS.

    As we head for polling day, remember what’s at stake.

    — Mike Amesbury Labour Candidate for Weaver Vale (@MikeAmesburyMP) December 4, 2019

    Thanks okay though. All the ‘muricans get together and rent a coach, drive across the border to Canada, buy their insulin and the coach drives them back.
    All we need is boats.

    Premier Icon slowoldman
    Subscriber

    EU is solidly Neo Liberal

    OK then.

    mattyfez
    Member

    Thanks okay though. All the ‘muricans get together and rent a coach, drive across the border to Canada, buy their insulin and the coach drives them back.
    All we need is boats.

    Hmm…

    America is slightly bigger than the UK, a couple of busses isn’t going to cut it, you need large shipments of the stuff on a regular basis.

    ctk
    Member

    Enjoyed Maitlis scratching the inside of her nostril on Newsnight just now :-0

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Johnson on Preston.
    Lots of good questions.
    No answers.
    Normal repeating of catch phrases over and over again.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    And again.

    Premier Icon kelvin
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    Premier Icon kelvin
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    Premier Icon dazh
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    There’s just something about Momentum that seems to suspend disbelief.

    This definitely. Momentum are nothing more than a fringe group designed to push the boundaries on policy. They’re mostly young idealist types who want to see the labour party adopt modern radical policies, rather than revert to Bennite 70s dogma. The fact that they’re deemonised as lefty trots by the media tells us all we really need to know.

    Premier Icon rone
    Subscriber

    This definitely. Momentum are nothing more than a fringe group designed to push the boundaries on policy.

    If you spend any time listening to Laura Parker you can’t help but notice she’s eloquent, well-researched, reasonable in her logic and above-all extremely mannered. She’s a fantastic interviewee and I would urge anyone who’s half interested in progressive politics to check out her recent stuff on Novara.

    John Lansman is slightly more colourful but is still an interesting talker. Both very pro-EU.

    Momentum have been demonised beyond all levels of logic. The right have them down as some sort of extinction rebellion super terrorists and I think the reality is a little more Waitrose than that.

    America is slightly bigger than the UK, a couple of busses isn’t going to cut it

    For them, or us? We’ll need boats unless Wales or Scotland bails on us and joins the EU.

    you need large shipments of the stuff on a regular basis

    They have that. Most people can’t afford it though, hence the buses over the border.

    Premier Icon rone
    Subscriber

    Anyway I’ve googled and I can’t find anything that suggests the EU is anything other than Neo-Liberal, and not remotely socialist.

    Completely correct. It’s also the trajectory of it. It’s not what it was.

    It is worth remembering that neoliberalism is a type of capitalism – so there are elements of the EU that are certainly all about markets an non-interference from the state.

    It’s interesting how we all can’t agree what the EU is and what it isn’t, but that’s because we project on to it what we believe it is a force for.

    I mean how do we interpret the recent block by some EU countries to reveal their tax affairs? That’s hardly moving in the direction of socialism is it?

    It’s also fair to say that most working-class Brexit Party members wouldn’t use this as an argument either.

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