2019 General Election

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  • 2019 General Election
  • fatoldgit
    Member

    Just imagine the uproar if the leader of a major political party and predecessor were both pictured at the unveiling of a statue to a known anti Semite and Nazi sympathiser

    https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/who-was-nancy-astor-the-first-woman-to-take-her-seat-in-parliament-was-also-branded-virulently-ant-1.493848

    Oh… hang on …….

    mrchrispy
    Member

    so you are not a tory…what about thick as mince and racist??

    😀
    (joke btw)

    alcolepone
    Member

    @cinnamon_girl

    Do you mind me asking what your reason for voting brexit was? Do you think it will affect how you will vote in the general election?

    curious to hear other opinions on here….

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    kimbers

    Subscriber

    again not entirely true

    German (& other) creditors took 70-50% ‘haircuts’ (wtf is it called that?) on greek debt, which was the biggest loan restructuring ever IIRC

    Yup. Which is a damn sight better than the total default that otherwise was heading their way.

    dannyh
    Member

    Do you mind me asking what your reason for voting brexit was? Do you think it will affect how you will vote in the general election?

    Same question from me too.

    I readily acknowledge that I am probably one of the ‘worst’ anti-Brexit posters on here. Mainly because I simply cannot get my head around the reasons for voting Leave. Maybe you could provide an example that I could empathise with…

    I promise not to come back at you directly whatever you type.

    dannyh
    Member

    Been busy for once! Anyway on the subject of thick voters. The brexit vote as we all know had many drivers. As you know I’ve always contended that a primary motivation for the brexit vote was to send a message to those in power that normal people are sick of being not being listened to, and in that case it can be argued that the voters were being entirely rational.

    In this general election though, it’s hugely different. We have a party which is telling voters that they are listening, that they will bring in a huge range of policies that will directly benefit them, and that they will be given a sensible choice to resolve brexit as opposed to the ill-defined, snake oil version offered in 2016. On the other side we have a party which offeres the direct opposite, and a doubling down on the very policies and system which people protested against in 2016.

    Yet for some bizarre reason, it would appear that the people who voted for brexit are now supporting the party who will do the opposite of what is in their interests. By any measure, that’s pretty stupid. So yeah, if those same people who voted for brexit vote for the tories, then they’ll get little sympathy from me. They have a massive opportunityt to put in a government which will listen to them and govern in their interests, and if they don’t do that, they’ll get everything they deserve.

    So basically whether and when people are thick or not is down to your say-so?

    Well, it has been great talking with you…

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    CG – during the referendum campaign I didn’t hear one single coherent argument for how leaving the EU would address any of the very real problems in our country. At a push I could see how people fell for the (to me, obvious) lies about £350 million for the NHS etc

    Now, 3 years down the line, with all that we know now about this almighty cluster-**** (project fear?), I’m so fed up with what its done to our country (completely paralysed it!) and with the endless bullshit that its delivered (Boris Johnson is presently our prime minister FFS!) that I’m not giving anyone the benefit of the doubt any more.

    Unless you’re a hedge fund manager or a currency speculator or some other disaster capitalist, if you still think this whole thing is a good idea, then I’m sorry but you’re out of your mind. And anyone who isn’t one of the above and votes Tory is the proverbial turkey voting for yuletide festivities as far as I’m convcerned

    Out of interest: why did you vote for Brexit? And how are those reasons looking now that we are where we are? How would you vote if there were a second referendum? And on what basis?

    because it absolutely baffles me that anyone buys the ‘get Brexit done!’ bullshit presently being peddled

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    People still think about “the money we give to Brussels” that could be “spent on our own priorities instead”… they’ve been told the costs, but they genuinely still don’t understand that the benefits outweigh the costs several times over… it’s fingers in ears and “let’s get it done” for millions of voters.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    So basically whether and when people are thick or not is down to your say-so

    As if I said that. If people thought voting for brexit was the only way to register their disgust with whatever they perceive the problems in society are, then I can understand that. I can’t for the life of me understand them voting Tory though.

    dannyh
    Member

    If people thought voting for brexit was the only way to register their disgust with whatever they perceive the problems in society are, then I can understand that.

    I can’t. Even if you didn’t understand much you should still understand:

    A)Even if the EU was the devil incarnate, undoing nearly fifty years of integration would come at a massive cost.

    B)Kicking your main trading partner in the balls is not a good idea.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    Being lied to doesn’t make you thick. Believing people that you think ought to be trustworthy, like prime ministers and such, doesn’t make you thick. You can lie to smart people, stupid people, as long as you use the right lie anyone can be fooled.

    Voting for things that will directly harm you, if you know and believe that they will, is stupid. But fooling people into voting for things that will harm you is bread and butter to Tories, it’s literally the only way they win elections, they have all the tools and all the backup and they’re very good at it. (not restricted to them of course, but them in particular- they’re a party of the minority that needs the votes of the majority, it’s the only way they can play it)

    Being fooled forever probably does make you gullible, but smart people can be gullible too.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    Shocking

    While I don’t want to annoy dazh and rone too much,  but a large part of the blame for that rests with the Labour party

    No, brexit a legitimate, if misguided, attempt to protest against an establishment

    Brexit was always, always  going to be owned and directed by the Right. If you weren’t sufficiently clued up to recognise that; then you had no business voting Out. There wasn’t a caveat on my Brexit voting paper where I could mark “Out please, but I want it known I’m not a right wing bigot and this is a protest, and I don’t want my vote to be hijacked and counted by Nigel for his stupid plans…”

    So, I think if you were voting out as a protest, that doesn’t pass the (quite low) bar for not being a bit thick, sorry.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Agree Nick. Someone else put it better than I could as well…

    dannyh
    Member

    Brexit was always, always going to be owned and directed by the Right. If you weren’t sufficiently clued up to recognise that; then you had no business voting Out. There wasn’t a caveat on my Brexit voting paper where I could mark “Out please, but I want it known I’m not a right wing bigot and this is a protest, and I don’t want my vote to be hijacked and counted by Nigel for his stupid plans…”

    So, I think if you were voting out as a protest, that doesn’t pass the (quite low) bar for not being a bit thick, sorry.

    That is about as ‘on point’ a post as I could think of.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    You just had to look at the Uber-neoliberal, free market ideology espoused by the Brexit enthusiasts and it was fairly obvious the real reasons they wanted to be ‘free of the shackles’ of the EU.

    They want to tear up workers rights, environmental controls, food standards and deregulate everything in sight, then turn Britain into a tax-free playground for the rich, an ask-no-questions haven for the capital of dodgy oligarchs and a regulation-free sweatshop for the rest of us. And the NHS, amongst many other things we presently accept as normal for an advanced civilised society, will pretty soon be history

    Given these people’s much publicised desire to do just this – they’d hardly been shy about it – if you’d failed to fathom this out for yourself, and instead thought the spiv in the tweed jacket and the 19th century throwback in the double-breasted suit were instead representing your best interests, well…. ?

    Premier Icon rone
    Subscriber

    You just had to look at the Uber-neoliberal, free market ideology espoused by the Brexit enthusiasts and it was fairly obvious the real reasons they wanted to be ‘free of the shackles’ of the EU.

    That’s not exclusive to Brexit though. That’s been around for 40 years, under multiple governments. And has now run its course. That’s why the Tories have no new ideas – neolibralism hasn’t served anything new up. Creaking at the seems, and distorting the money circulation between rich and poor. Little growth, a society built on personal debt, austerity and battered infrastructure etc.

    That’s the bit that’s got to change this election.

    dannyh
    Member

    This might be 20/20 hindsight, but I have a recollection I may have said something similar just before the referendum.

    Something along the lines of ‘if you are in two minds look at the arseholes that are pushing this project’.

    Basically if you are doing anything that the likes of Trump or Farage would approve of, then you can be pretty sure it is a bad thing.

    But we have been here about a hundred times before so….

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    Yet the leader of the Labour Party has spent his entire career being actively hostile to the one organisation that has kept a check on unrestrained free-market neoliberalism in this country. And even after all this, is still fundamentally opposed to it.

    While we’re on the subject of people who aren’t very bright….

    It’s worth remembering, though, that being pro-EU is analogous to saying that you’re pro-parliament; it’s a system, not a political movement. Just because it’s currently dominated by a left of centre agenda doesn’t mean that this will always be the case.

    I’m a staunch remain voter, but I can see significant flaws in the EU: it’s bloated, corrupt and generally places far too much power in the hands of people who don’t really know what they’re doing. I know a couple of people who have worked within the organisation, so this is not based on tabloid nonsense.

    Personally, I’d like to see us remain in a reformed EU.

    JP

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    I’m no fan of the EU in its current form either, for the reasons you’ve listed, but everything’s relative.

    Overall our membership of it has been a damn site better for the country than letting the likes of the six-toed, born-to-rule pony-****ers we have in power at the moment just get on with whatever they fancy, totally unrestrained

    As we’re about to find out

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    While I don’t want to annoy dazh

    As if! I’m almost unannoyable, especially on the subject of politics. You don’t spend 30 odd years at the extreme fringes if you’re easily annoyed by people disagreeing with you 🙂

    but a large part of the blame for that rests with the Labour party

    I don’t disagree, brexit has broken the labour party as much as the tories. The difference is that the tories have reverted to type and fallen into line out of naked self-interest (Matt Hancock and Nicky Morgan being perfect examples), whereas many labour people still try to maintain a principled position, which exacerbates the differences of opinion.

     If you weren’t sufficiently clued up to recognise that; then you had no business voting Out.

    Disagree on this though. Putting overt and ingrained racism aside (of which there is lots), the vast majority of non-politically engaged people either don’t understand the EU, see it as foreigners ‘ruling’ over them, or see it as charity from abroad. For better or worse – and this might explain why working class people vote tory – there is a strong culture in the UK (probably everywhere actually) of wanting/needing to stand on your own two feet. It’s a pride thing. Misplaced I would say, as we’re all dependent on others to some extent, but it’s there, and it results in things like brexit and tory governments.

    mattyfez
    Member

    Don’t dispair too much binners, a lot of floating voters I know are now erring toward tactical voting.

    A good mate of mine is a lib dem voter and is voting Labour due to the local numbers.

    My nan, a life long tory voter isn’t going to vote because she’s so upset by the way things are going.

    Polls are one thing, but that doesn’t translate directly into seats, and the polls are in hung parliament territory.

    It really is a unique election as its so swung by whether the punter wants brexit or not.

    I’ve booked Friday the 13th off work as I’ll either be celebrating or applying for an Irish passport.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    I agree that the polls are as good as meaningless as this will play out seat by seat, with a hell of a lot of tactical voting going on.

    I’m taking the 13th off too. Planning on staying up and watching the results come in. This is by far the most important election of my lifetime. It’s make or break for the 99.9% of the population who aren’t landed gentry, hedge fund managers, venture capitalists, Eton Oxbridge chancers or Jacob Rees Mogg (who ticks all those boxes)

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    kelvin

    Subscriber

    https://comparethetacticals.com/

    OK, I know national political stuff tends not to understand Scotland… but my seat is SNP, with the Tories a worryingly close second, and Labour a little further afield at third- giving the idiots at Scottish Labour a real chance of hurting the SNP and handing the seat to the Tories, so it’s pretty important.

    Oh and that SNP MP is Joanna Cherry, who was responsible for the overturning of Johnson’s fake prorogation. She is literally the most effective anti-brexit candidate in the election.

    But this site includes a recommendation that if I want to stop brexit, I should vote Green. They didn’t run last time, but teh time before they got 3%.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    ‘This site’ recommends nothing though, does it… it brings together all the different datasets and recommendations so that you can see and compare them without having to hunt them down… if one of their sources has a dud recommendation, you can compare what they advise with what the others are saying…

    https://comparethetacticals.com/edinburgh-south-west

    As I said, useful, not definitive. Much easier than checking all the tactical voting sites individually (or worse, checking just one that turns out to be an outlier with poor advice).

    Vote SNP.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    kelvin

    Subscriber

    ‘This site’ recommends nothing though, does it…

    I’d say that it does recommend courses of action- not their own, but they’re recommending these other listings. And while I half agree on them usefully drawing together sources, they’re recommending specific sites for specific reasons. In this case, brexit.

    I think a lot of people will be looking at this sort of thing for the first time, so it’s a bit of a worry when some of the guidance is almost exactly the opposite of what you should do.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    it’s bloated, corrupt and generally places far too much power in the hands of people who don’t really know what they’re doing

    Hmm, that sounds rather familiar….

    dannyh
    Member

    stop making the assumption that everyone who voted for Brexit is a Tory/thick as mince/racist

    If someone, anyone, could provide any evidence to the contrary then I would look at it. In the absence of any such evidence then the best you can possibly hope for is

    gullible

    Not a great look IMO.

    Premier Icon Kryton57
    Subscriber

    Hmm Boris says to NATO “One for all and all for one…”

    #hypocrit

    kiksy
    Member

    This would clearly be morally very wrong, but anyone know the rules around doing something like:

    Setup a party called something like “Get Brexit Done Party” or “NHS Support Party”, do no campaigning and have zero intention of acting on anything.

    Then run in marginals purely to try and suck up some votes from people who just read what’s on the paper and tick it?

    I’m assuming this would be illegal in some way otherwise with the state of things someone would of tried it already?

    If there isn’t rules in place then maybe their needs to be!

    This would clearly be morally very wrong, but anyone know the rules around doing something like:

    Setup a party called something like “Get Brexit Done Party” or “NHS Support Party”, do no campaigning and have zero intention of acting on anything.

    Then run in marginals purely to try and suck up some votes from people who just read what’s on the paper and tick it?

    I’m assuming this would be illegal in some way otherwise with the state of things someone would of tried it already?

    If there isn’t rules in place then maybe their needs to be!

    I don’t see any reason why you can’t do that. You could also get together with a bunch of mates and join the local party of your choice and literally take it over your local party and selecting the candidate of your choice. There are very few people active parties at a local level these days you’d only need a hundred people or so to totally take over. Frankly I think you could do it with 20.

    I don’t know if it was planned but a local candidate to me, fought the local elections as Tory and the day after she won her ward went to the Green Party. Three people involved in a local campaign in my area joined the party they expected to win wards in the local elections. Two of the three were able to stand in safe wards for that party within a year and directly influence that local issue.

    Momentum have showed what can be acheived.

    Lots of practical ways to achieve things in politics but people prefer to complain on FB so they never happen.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    it’s a bit of a worry when some of the guidance is almost exactly the opposite of what you should do.

    Is it showing you something different to me? A quick glance at their pooled information for Cherry’s seat screams “vote SNP” to me. Hope she wins.

    Anyway, these kind of tools are useful for showing people that what is happening in their seat is probably entirely different to the debate coming out of their goggle box and pocket computer 90% of the time. Tactical voting is essential to prevent the usual suspects having FPTP deliver them a majority government based on a minority share of the vote.

    Vote tactically.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    Barry Gardner was being interviewed on Today. He was being asked about Labours commitment to NATO (and the implications for national security). Talk about being on the back foot from the off. He was read back a selection of the sixth-form-level, boooooooo to America, NATO is an imperialist conspiracy bollocks spouted by Corbyn over the years.

    Its bloody tragic! He’s an absolute yawning open goal for anyone who wants to have a pop at him and the labour party. Whatever the subject, theres a multitude of nonsensical ill-thought-through, voter-repelling, common-room-level quotes all gift-wrapped and ready to go

    There was no way a man with that much of a mountain of toxic baggage should be anywhere near the leadership of the party. He’s an absolute liability!

    I can’t be the only one wondering what the the polls would be looking like with pretty much anyone other than that clown as labour party leader

    I can’t be the only one wondering what the the polls would be looking like with pretty much anyone other than that clown as labour party leader

    Labour would probably have won the last GE.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    Never underestimate the right wing press & their ability to monster a Labour leader

    Look at Ed Milliband & the bacon sandwich of doom !

    Johnson’s past is chequered with dishonesty, lies & unpleasantness that would have seen anyone else a footnote in history by now, but they just love eccentric old bojo !

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    Never underestimate the right wing press & their ability to monster a Labour leader

    Its not been the hardest job in the world for the past few years, has it?

    They can phone it in

    nickjb
    Member

    Its not been the hardest job in the world for the past few years, has it?

    Nope. The public just seem to lap it up. Plenty of useful idiots to keep repeating their nonsense as well.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    A good article in todays Guardian about the increasingly blurred boundry between politics and journalism

    How Boris Johnson and Brexit are Berlusconifying Britain

    Britain is used to having the majority of newspapers pitted against the Labour party, and expects every Labour leader to come under disproportionate attack. But the combination of Brexit and Johnson has produced something altogether new: a sense that Downing Street is now a media agency, and Fleet Street a political one.

    The people Jez surrounds himself with are hardly helping his public image…

    (As an aside, met the Fink on holiday this summer. Lovely bloke. Scarily intelligent, and excellent company for a chat over a cold beer)

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