2019 General Election

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  • 2019 General Election
  • Premier Icon rone
    Subscriber

    (And Greece tried spending their way out and went utterly tits up.)

    Greece doesn’t issue it’s own currency.

    Premier Icon rone
    Subscriber

    Ah so the Tories could ignore that referendum then?
    Why would they? Tories are mostly anti-EU.

    Why would they? – they’re mostly anti-EU.

    Premier Icon rone
    Subscriber

    So I definitely don’t understand how lower corporation tax rates would lead you to re-invest revenue. If you re-invest it then you don’t pay corp tax on it do you?

    That’s correct.

    That’s exactly what we do. We spend our money on film equipment and get 100% tax relief. That money could equally go on business premises, cost of sales etc.

    Ofcourse we have less wages but it’s all about growth.

    There’s some rubbish on here about Corporation tax.

    You’ve got it correct Molgrips.

    Premier Icon rone
    Subscriber

    Don’t forget the Tories are unable to carry out their final cuts to corporation tax because they say they want more money for hospitals.

    This is despite the fact they say that lowering corp tax brings more in.

    They never tell the truth. No one tells the truth about the monetary system save a few prominent MMTers.

    Premier Icon rone
    Subscriber

    If growing an economy was as simple as borrowing and spending there would be no poor countries and every country in the world would be spending like crazy

    That’s because there are other constraints:

    Inflation, slack in the economy via the labour force and resources and it helps if you are the sole issuer of you’re your own money.

    We will only ever grow the economy by spending – our country has stalled because of lack of spending. It has to happen.

    A government ‘debt’ is a positive in the private sector. The money is then taxed back out of circulation.

    Our monetary system demands this or we will never grow. Why do you think the Tories have be an abject failure ? – it’s because they don’t spend, and on the right things.

    That’s because there are other constraints:

    Now you’re getting it!!! Keynesian stimulus has its place but it isn’t a panacea for all countries at all times. (Trump is trying it now and I can’t find a single informed commentator who things it’s a sane thing to do at this point in the cycle – can you???)

    Why do you think the Tories have be an abject failure ? – it’s because they don’t spend

    They’ve been spending plenty. We’re currently spending more on interest on debt than we spend on welfare.

    We spend our money on film equipment and get 100% tax relief

    Yes, you avoid corporation tax. It’s easy to avoid, that’s the point.

    Don’t forget the Tories are unable to carry out their final cuts to corporation tax because they say they want more money for hospitals.
    This is despite the fact they say that lowering corp tax brings more in.

    Corporation Tax Revenue has steadily gone up with almost every cut in rate in recent years. That doesn’t mean it wold go up if it was cut again. By definition HMRC are looking for the sweetspot and *think* this is it. If they thought another cut would increase revenue they’d already have made it.

    No one tells the truth about the monetary system save a few prominent MMTers.

    😀 Thousands of people from all countries in the world who would all gain from growing the economy are all lying to stop the economy growing? Hope that tin foil hat isn’t too tight for you.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Yes, you avoid corporation tax. It’s easy to avoid, that’s the point.

    But this is not a loophole, n it’s deliberately designed that way to encourage the money to be spent back in the economy where it creates growth.

    Avoiding it is doing stuff like creating a UK subsidiary of an overseas company,then the overseas company charges the UK one a license fee to use their branding, which funnily enough is usually just about the same figure as the UK company makes profit.

    DrJ
    Member

    And Greece tried spending their way out and went utterly tits up.

    That’s precisely the wrong way round – Greece adopted (was forced to adopt) austerity (to satisfy German political constraints) and it went from bad to worse.

    That’s precisely the wrong way round – Greece adopted (was forced to adopt) austerity (to satisfy German political constraints) and it went from bad to worse.

    It’s the right way round, Greece went to the EU (Germany) for a baleout after they’d tried spending cash to boost their economy and it catastrophically failed.

    If borrowing and spending had grown their economy Greece wouldn’t have needed to go to the EU (Germany) for a baleout in the first place. In fact if borrowing and spending was considered a panacea then they wouldn’t have needed a baleout from the EU (Germany) because alternative lenders would have been queing up to lend safe in the knowledge they’d get their money back plus a ton of interest once the borrowing caused Greece’s economy to thrive.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    Greece tried to spend their way out of it? Eh? Thats a somewhat interesting interpretation. You’re making it sound like they were attempting to build some kind of utopian Keynesian economic model. They definitely weren’t doing that.

    Greece actually took advantage of lax EU financial oversight and moral-free UK-based ‘creative accountancy’ to cook the books and spank loads of other peoples money on unnecessary shiny things, vanity projects and good old fashioned corruption. All while simultaneously making an executive decision that nobody was going to pay any tax.

    Can you spot the flaw in that plan? Hence needing to be bailed out. Greeces problems were entirely of their own making, but the government tried to blame those horrid nasty Germans for making them face up to the reality that magic money trees don’t actually exist

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    @oob Thats not the whole story

    Greece were borrowing with no tax base to pay it back, tax avoidance was endemic

    Government had spent the last 20? years in the pocket of oligarchs.

    At every level tax was not being paid

    >25% ! of the economy was off the books just before the crash, that was the worst in the developed world in the time

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    Greeces problems were entirely of their own making, but the government tried to blame those horrid nasty Germans for making them face up to the reality that magic money trees don’t actually exist

    I’m not sure that’s quite true either. German banks were happy to lend them billions even though they knew they couldn’t pay it back. The greek bailout by the EU/German govt wasn’t a bailout of Greece, it was a bailout for German and EU banks to protect them from losses due to irresponsible lending. Sound at all familiar?

    Anyway this is all off topic. Where’s Dannyh? I was quite enjoying trolling him with silence. I thought he had more perseverence that that 😉

    Premier Icon Del
    Subscriber

    Don’t let us stop you.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    German banks were happy to lend them billions even though they knew they couldn’t pay it back.

    Don’t be ridiculous. No bank is ever going to do that. The Greek government spent millions with UK based accountancy firms to cook their books for them to display a rather rose-tinted balance sheet, thus qualifying for finance that they knew they could never afford to pay back.

    You’d kind of think, as a bank, that the accounts you were being presented with by a sovereign government within the EU weren’t actually the work of pure fiction.

    You can’t blame the German banks for what was systemic huge-scale fraud by the Greek government. Which is why our ‘oh no… poor us’ act afterwards didn’t elicit much sympathy

    Still… lots of UK firms in The City made a killing out of it. Which, somewhat ironically, points us to the direction of what our economy will be based on post-Brexit

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    The greek bailout by the EU/German govt wasn’t a bailout of Greece, it was a bailout for German and EU banks to protect them from losses due to irresponsible lending. Sound at all familiar?

    again not entirely true

    German (& other) creditors took 70-50% ‘haircuts’ (wtf is it called that?) on greek debt, which was the biggest loan restructuring ever IIRC?

    anyway Kantat who predicted pretty well 2017 result have Tories up 1pt to 12 ahead today, which sucks donkey balls

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    I’m hoping for heavy snow and sub-zero temperatures. Weren’t they predicting a flu epidemic too?

    Let’s hope there’s some truth in this

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    apparently 25% of voters already voted by post!

    spekkie
    Member

    “>25% ! of the economy was off the books just before the crash, that was the worst in the developed world in the time”

    Spain says “hold my pint”

    jonba
    Member

    I’ve posted my vote and my wife has hers also.

    dannyh
    Member

    Anyway this is all off topic. Where’s Dannyh? I was quite enjoying trolling him with silence. I thought he had more perseverence that that

    <Waves>

    Still here buddy – but what about you? I was getting worried I might have to source an online picture of an ice sculpture to stand in for you.

    I haven’t got time now, but later on I will pose the question again in a specific manner – with a couple of quotes from you.

    Premier Icon frankconway
    Subscriber

    And in other news….Ofcom reject Tory complaint about placing ice sculpture on plinth in place of Johnson.
    Complaint is probably the wrong word – whingeing is more appropriate.

    mattyfez
    Member

    Holy…

    Britain Elects
    ‏ @britainelects

    London, Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 47% (+8)
    CON: 30% (+1)
    LDEM: 15% (-4)
    GRN: 4% (-1)
    BREX: 3% (-3)

    via @YouGov, 28 Nov – 02 Dec
    Chgs. w/ Nov

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1201822002476134401

    EDIT… ah its actually the wesminster constituency :/

    I’ve posted my vote and my wife has hers also.

    I’ve posted my vote and my wife’s also. She was going to vote LibDem so I had to take pre-emptive action.

    Premier Icon boomerlives
    Subscriber

    Well, Corb’s has finally said sorry for anti-semitism.

    And it only took the intervention of heavy weight interviewer Phil Schofield to do it.

    When is Holly Willibooby going to get Boris on the sofa?

    No, wait, that’s made me shudder….

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    but what about you?

    Been busy for once! Anyway on the subject of thick voters. The brexit vote as we all know had many drivers. As you know I’ve always contended that a primary motivation for the brexit vote was to send a message to those in power that normal people are sick of being not being listened to, and in that case it can be argued that the voters were being entirely rational.

    In this general election though, it’s hugely different. We have a party which is telling voters that they are listening, that they will bring in a huge range of policies that will directly benefit them, and that they will be given a sensible choice to resolve brexit as opposed to the ill-defined, snake oil version offered in 2016. On the other side we have a party which offeres the direct opposite, and a doubling down on the very policies and system which people protested against in 2016.

    Yet for some bizarre reason, it would appear that the people who voted for brexit are now supporting the party who will do the opposite of what is in their interests. By any measure, that’s pretty stupid. So yeah, if those same people who voted for brexit vote for the tories, then they’ll get little sympathy from me. They have a massive opportunityt to put in a government which will listen to them and govern in their interests, and if they don’t do that, they’ll get everything they deserve.

    Premier Icon boomerlives
    Subscriber

    To summarize: Brexit = stupid?

    kerley
    Member

    Anyway on the subject of thick voters.

    Channel 4 news had a piece on focus groups. They had a bunch of working class people being asked questions/looking at TV clips etc,. and then asking for their opinions.
    Most were traditionally Labour voters but not really because of Labour values but because their parents had always voted Labour.
    They were showed clips of Boris and Corbyn. They like Boris just because, but they can’t trust Corbyn for some reason.
    After their discussions about NHS, employment etc,. they were shown a clip of Boris saying, “We will get Brexit done and then spend 2020 doing all the things that will be make us great”
    They all then said they would vote for him as he is saying exactly what they have been talking about. Even though he actually really said nothing at all

    Shocking.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    But Daz has always argued that you can’t dismiss Brexiteers as shit-thick racists.

    Looks like he’s coming round to the fact that the majority really are.

    Turkeys and Christmas and all that…

    EDIT: that Channel 4 focus group last night was terrifying. We’re going to end up with a Tory government and 5 years of Boris bloody Johnson because of jellyheads like that lot

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    I hope youre happy Binners

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    So yeah, if those same people who voted for brexit vote for the tories, then they’ll get little sympathy from me.

    Don’t forget about the people who don’t vote Tory yet still have to put up with Tories doing them over. Or the kids of Tory voters etc.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    Malcolm Tucker would never have allowed this to happen…

    sobriety
    Member

    but they can’t trust Corbyn for some reason.

    It’s the beard, everyone knows that men with beards aren’t to be trusted.

    Now you’re getting it!!! Keynesian stimulus has its place but it isn’t a panacea for all countries at all times. (Trump is trying it now and I can’t find a single informed commentator who things it’s a sane thing to do at this point in the cycle – can you???)

    Oh, irony.
    Expansionist monetary policy and demand side fiscal policy doesn’t make it Keynesian. In fact Keynes is against expansionist monetary policies during periods of low interest rates.

    Keynes also proposed tax cuts and spending in response to recessionary conditions or pressure. He did not propose it as a solution to non recession conditions. He was in favour of protectionism though. Quite liked military spending too.

    So Trump’s protectionism is good, his monetary policy is not Keynesian because its at the wrong time. Ditto Fiscal policy.
    Stop conflating Keynesian economics with expansionary monetary and demand side fiscal policies. They aren’t the same thing.

    They’ve been spending plenty. We’re currently spending more on interest on debt than we spend on welfare.

    As was explained the last time you raised this red herring, that is based on ideological choice, not sound economic reasoning.

    They’ve also spent the least in the NHS ever, once you adjust for inflation etc. Is this Keynesian? Or just ideological stupidity? Is Austerity a good idea? Does it work or is it ideological stupidity? Enquiring minds want to know.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    To summarize: Brexit = stupid?

    No, brexit a legitimate, if misguided, attempt to protest against an establishment which has ignored normal people for decades. Voting tory on the otherhand (unless you’re one of the lucky 5%), totally stupid and self-defeating. Even if you desperately want brexit, it’s still pretty stupid, as the tories have so far shown no signs that they have the faintest idea of how to make it happen.

    Looks like he’s coming round to the fact that the majority really are.

    Not really. There’s plenty of those for sure, but I still reckon most are just normal non-political people who are pissed off at continually being ***** over. The irrational bit is that they think the tories represent their interests.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    Unless you’re a hedge fund manager then voting for the Tories or Brexit makes you pretty ****ing stupid in my book

    DrJ
    Member

    After their discussions about NHS, employment etc,. they were shown a clip of Boris saying, “We will get Brexit done and then spend 2020 doing all the things that will be make us great”
    They all then said they would vote for him as he is saying exactly what they have been talking about. Even though he actually really said nothing at all

    These were the imbeciles who said Boris is “straight talking”, right?

    Premier Icon cinnamon_girl
    Subscriber

    Unless you’re a hedge fund manager then voting for the Tories or Brexit makes you pretty ****ing stupid in my book

    binners stop making the assumption that everyone who voted for Brexit is a Tory/thick as mince/racist. You and plenty of others on here are not doing themselves any favours by banging on about this. I voted for Brexit but haven’t voted Tory for some 20 years and have no intention of doing so ever again.

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