2 cyclists killed by LGV, in Cornwall

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  • 2 cyclists killed by LGV, in Cornwall
  • retro83
    Member

    project – Member
    all it needs is for motorists who see a cyclist or cyclists in front of them check mirors, indicateif safe to do so and pull out, and hold the passing lane till youve passed them, if youre to close to them ask yourself why, and SLOW DOWN, then use the procedure above.

    Its not rocket science is it,just basic driving skills.

    Doesn’t really work like that on a lot of roads. For example, the A127, both lanes moving at the same speed absolutely chockablock every day. If you come up behind a cyclist, you can’t overtake as the traffic is too bunched up to change lanes, so you slow down to 15mph or whatever. Then the speed difference is too great to get into any gaps that crop up. End result, people squeeze past in lane.

    (Not excusing it at all)

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    An article I found whilst searching for something else, which agrees with my point about the standard of “competent driving” being incorrectly applied, but also suggesting that there is new guidance which should improve things. In theory the driving behaviour discussed above which I consider to be dangerous does now explicitly come under that category – we shall have to see what happens in reality.

    http://www.ctc.org.uk/news/minor-win-for-cyclists-prosecution-guidance-shifts

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    …here are several more articles from the same source, all banging the same drum as me (I have to admit I hadn’t realised I was peddling the CTC party line so closely – should probably rejoin).

    http://www.ctc.org.uk/blog/rhiaweston/lenient-sentencing-just-tip-of-iceberg
    http://www.ctc.org.uk/blog/roger-geffen/crushing-cyclist-lorry-while-on-mobile-really-careless-driving
    http://www.ctc.org.uk/blog/rhiaweston/careless-driving-charge-contested-cycling-lawyer

    Lots more there if you follow the links.

    mdavids
    Member

    Cyclists and fast/busy A-roads just dont mix in my opinion. We as cyclists can complain about driving standards all we want but it isn’t going to change the fact that there’s some roads anyone with a sense of self-preservation shouldn’t ride on. I believe its also counter productive to ride certain roads if we want to change drivers attitude towards us.

    Its one thing expecting time and space in a low speed differential urban environment where we aren’t holding anyone up significantly. Causing drivers to brake from 60+ mph to sub 20 mph is not going to gain us support from the general population.

    There’s a road near me you couldn’t pay me to ride on, I’ve only ever seen one cyclist on there in 15 years of commuting by car and I’ve actually seen him several times so he wasn’t there by accident. In my opinion he’s an absolute muppet and he’s not doing our “cause” any good. If thats what I think of him as a regular, experienced cyclist, what on earth are all those non-cycling drivers thinking as they swerve round him or brake heavily for HGV’s quickly swapping lanes?

    IanW
    Member

    Views like this /\ are worse than the careless driving that is killing people who choose not to get about by car.

    You mdavids are a plum of the first degree, well meaning Im sure but light of thought without a doubt.

    The blaming of victims for getting in the way of cars in this thread reveals the real challenge, its not the petrol heads or commerce its the presumption even by those sympathetic to bike that out of control cars and trucks have a divine right to roads and the rest of should just keep out of the way.

    We could do that, it would start with dual carriageways, then a roads, then b roads, then bridleways, until theres nothing left.

    Honestly im struggling to believe some of the twaddle written in this an other recent threads is from a cyclists. More likely pobs who have come across this site. Anyone with any miles wouldn’t talk such absolute tosh.

    mdavids
    Member

    /\ Emotive twaddle from someone without a grasp of reality.

    Petrolhead??? Commerce??? Out of control cars and trucks??? Divine right???? WTF are you on about. It’s people using fast trunk roads to go about their business. You cant expect every road to be designed around the cyclist.

    What do you want? Every road in the country to be a 30 mph limit in case you decide to use it for a bimble on your bike? Nice thought but it isn’t going happen is it?

    Yes, driving standards and attitudes leave a lot to be desired. I’m not blaming the victim for being there. You can keep thinking me a plum and I’ll keep averaging over a 100 incident free miles a week because I use my judgement not to put myself on clearly dangerous roads.

    IanW
    Member

    You are blaming the cyclists for being irresponsible, in doing so excuses the driver for hitting them.

    That’s wrong, there is no excuse.

    I hope every body who has posted on this thread has also donated to their JustGiving page .
    Actions … Not words…

    Dickyboy
    Member

    It seems to me that as cyclists we are quite happy to be banned from motoroways yet demand the right to ride on national speed limit dual carriageways, to my mind nsl dc’s without any sort of hard shoulder are more hazardous than motorways & providing there is a reasonable alternative provided I would be quite happy to support a ban on cyclists using nsl dc’s. When there is not a reasonable alternative available then the nsl should be reduced to at least 50mph (40mph for HGV’s)

    This has nothing to do with the standard of anyone’s cycling or driving but all to do with the risk analysis of mixing vulnerable road users with other vehicles when such a high speed differential is likely to occur.

    Flame grill toast & call me anti cycling all you like, but fyi I am the sort of cyclist that didn’t learn to drive until I had kids & regularly used my bike to get from A to B over long distances, not some petrol head who sees cycling as just a recreational hobby.

    & yes the std of driving in this country is down right appalling & needs to be tackled, but that is not going to be sorted quickly & I don’t think that demanding the right to ride on nsl dc’s is going to help our cause, perhaps like Jades (haven’t checked the name) Bridge we should be out there demanding a viable alternative & organise a mass peace ride down the A30?

    & yes I have donated, hence my post with link to page earlier.

    amedias
    Member

    It seems to me that as cyclists we are quite happy to be banned from motoroways yet demand the right to ride on national speed limit dual carriageways,

    There is a fundamental point here that you’re missing…

    Cyclists have never been allowed on motorways, we are not demanding the right to ride on NSL DCs, we already have that right.

    What you are talking about is removing the existing rights of one group of users, because of the actions of another, and that is no way to behave.

    All we want is for that right to be respected and our lives not to be put in further un-necessary danger by the standards of driving on them.

    To talk of banning cyclists from roads and using Mways as an example is missing the point entirely and does nothing to improve the safety of the roads in general (for cyclists or other users), you are 100% right in that it will not be easy and will not happen quickly, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fight for it.

    NSL DCs are often far safer roads than other NSL roads where visibility is worse and there are no other lanes for overtaking and no central reservation. If you start down the banning cyclists route then where does it end? ban them from all 60 limit roads? what about 50s? narrow 40s with bends? what about bannign tractors, mopeds, milkfloats, horses, walkers, wide loads, robin reliants, people who have broken down and stopped… the list goes on, and all it does is perpuate the idea that cyclist shouldn’t be there.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    One big issue with banning cyclists from DCs is the message it sends to drivers – that cyclists should get out of their way. I’d hazard a guess that such a course of action might actually lead to more cyclist deaths in total – not many cyclists do actually get killed on DCs, and I can see driving standards around cyclists on other roads getting worse as a result.

    Driving standards are appalling, and getting worse imo. I got beeped by the driver behind me when I was patiently following a cyclist up Sheep Barn Lane (steep, narrow, winding hill nr New Addington). I stopped (and stopped him, and all the traffic) and got out. He was very angry and said I should have passed the cyclist. I said I couldn’t see round corners. He (and his (equally) chavvy girlfried) said I shouldn’t be driving. (Presumably they CAN see round corners?).

    Gary McCourt is the name of the driver whose sentence is being reviewed. I was one of the people who wrote to the Crown Office as part of a CTC campaign.

    As for being banned from certain roads. No. That only reinforces the commonly-held view that cyclists “shouldn’t be on the road” are “in the way” or “holding everyone up”. I get that roads are busy and traffic/goods needs to move around the country swiftly, however, it is possible to start one’s manoeuvre early and pull out in good time to give a cyclist the correct amount of space.

    I know it’s hard, because when I tow my caravan, the f**kers in the fast lane really really don’t want to let me out to pass things… but with gentle pressure they do yield.

    Vehicles are all fitted with brakes, mirrors and indicators – it’s a fairly simple matter to use them appropriately.

    A few swingeing sentences for drivers killing cyclists will soon get the message across that it’s not OK, and that it’s not “just one of those things”.

    mrmo
    Member

    aracer, i thought that was what you meant, its relevance is that a senior barrister thinks that clipping cyclists doesn’t matter….

    What hope is there if the legal system believes that cyclists don’t get injured when hit by cars?

    Premier Icon crazy-legs
    Subscriber

    Probably needs it’s own thread really but yet another incident involving a lorry and cyclist.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-23207691

    🙁

    I’m seeing adverts on the back of buses now “Drivers – give cyclists room”. This is a good thing.

    How about, where there are overhead gantries: “Look out for cyclists: 10 years in jail for killing one”. (OK, a bit extreme maybe, but you get the point).

    Where there are not, signs at the side of the road “Look out for cyclists – give them room”, increased Police presence, road safety leaflets given out at (car) race events, and other gatherings, tv adverts, newspaper adverts.

    Awareness/consciousness could be raised and changed relatively simply I believe … if there was the political will. After all, Acts of Parliament made the canals possible, then the railways and then motorways – the same legislative machinery COULD swing into action on behalf of cyclists … COULD. 🙁 but will it?

    mrmo
    Member

    Dickyhead, to be honest i would like to be able to use motorways on a bike, but not the carriageway as such. All new main roads should be built with a high quality parallel cyclepath. And i mean high quality, kept clean etc. How much extra would it cost when building a new bypass to add a dedicated cyclepath.

    I don’t choose to ride on dual carriage ways and fast a roads, but often there is no viable alternative. Give me an alternative and i will be happy. I don’t like riding around cars, simply because it isn’t the nicest place to be. exhaust fumes, rubbish etc.

    Premier Icon Clover
    Subscriber

    I cycled up a stretch of dual carriageway yesterday on my way to work – not really by choice but because I couldn’t see a good way round it (on a 40 mile commute you tend not to want to add loads of extra miles).

    As I trundled along there were very few cars and they gave me a wide berth. The only terrifying section was crossing entry and exit slip roads – warily – checking over my shoulder a lot. The dual carriageway gives way to single carriageway 50mph and it’s actually scarier as the traffic compresses into the smaller space.

    Drivers don’t seem to realise that you’re not there to be an impediment. You checked the map – same as they did – and planned a route and expect to be able to cycle it without losing any limbs.

    Personally, I think everyone should do a mandatory year of driving in Belgium or Spain where the culture seems to be that it’s fair enough to scare the bejeezus out of fellow drivers but woe betide anyone who so much as mildly disconcerts a cyclist.

    IanW
    Member

    crazy-legs – Member
    Probably needs it’s own thread really but yet another incident involving a lorry and cyclist.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-23207691

    That does sound really sad and possibly another asz left turn incident.

    mrmo
    Member

    Personally, I think everyone should do a mandatory year of driving in Belgium or Spain where the culture seems to be that it’s fair enough to scare the bejeezus out of fellow drivers but woe betide anyone who so much as mildly disconcerts a cyclist.

    I saw this in Gran Canaria, over taking driver went right over into the other lane, that there happened to be a car coming the other way didn’t seem to figure in the act?

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