18 Bikes Pinion bike

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  • 18 Bikes Pinion bike
  • Is that chainstay length a fucntion of the gearbox, or just someones preferance?

    Premier Icon ir_bandito
    Subscriber

    Can’t see it being related to the gearbox, other than possible space constraints at the gearbox end….

    jackthedog
    Member

    Is that chainstay length a fucntion of the gearbox, or just someones preferance?

    As a 26er with no front mech cluttering up the picture, it looks spot on to me.

    I want a go.

    matthew_h
    Member

    It’s a combination of a tiny chainring and no front mech clutter that makes the chainstays look long, with the chain tensioned, they’re actually only a few mm longer than the equivalent Cotic Soul.

    Premier Icon ir_bandito
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    18 Bikes Pinion Demo Bike by 18bikes, on Flickr

    WANT, WANT, WANT!!!!
    (in belt-drive format)

    Wow ! Genuinely impressed. That is the first gearbox bike I’ve even seen, that isn’t fugly.

    Well done chaps, sterling work.

    Premier Icon ir_bandito
    Subscriber

    http://shop.18bikes.co.uk/news.php?articleid=122

    Looking froward to the review chaps. Might have to get to Hope to have a go on it…

    rs
    Member

    how much do those come in at?

    Premier Icon AlexSimon
    Subscriber

    I’ve just been trying to figure out the weight +gearbox -shifter/mech/etc/etc, but it would probably be easier if I just found out how much the demo bike weighed! 🙂

    Looks very nice indeed.

    [typo on site: 100,000km service intervals looks like it should be 10,000)

    Premier Icon portlyone
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    It’s the future!

    Premier Icon sweaman2
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    I must be missing something as to my eyes it looks like the chainring is directly connected to the rear cog?

    I’m assuming that to make it work the crankset is rotating independently of the chainring with two different drive axles?

    Premier Icon ir_bandito
    Subscriber

    how much do those come in at?

    From the comments on their flickr picture:

    We are charging £2450 for a custom frame and gearbox (which includes shifter, cranks and sprockets)

    Seems fair enough. Custom 853 frame must be about £800 these days?, add in complexity of a non-standard gear-box shell to that.
    No idea how much a pinion box costs, but a new Rohloff is in the region of £900 for the hub only, and that’s the nearest comparison.

    Premier Icon scaredypants
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    I must be missing something as to my eyes it looks like the chainring is directly connected to the rear cog?

    Shhhhhhhhhh !

    matthew_h
    Member

    (typo on site: 100,000km service intervals looks like it should be 10,000)

    Cheers for spotting that, just corrected it.

    I’d be seriously interested in something like this.
    I know Rohloff like to trade on their reputation for reliability, but I know I’m not the first to have bearing and seal problems and I’m hoping I never experience the cracked spoke flange problem.

    The only downside to Pinion I can see is that you can’t easily swap from gears to single speed.

    mansonsoul
    Member

    My god, that looks amazing. The future is coming!

    JonEdwards
    Member

    Had a look at this last weekend. Looks absolutely great. Very well thought out indeed. It’s a standard singlespeed rear wheel, so you get a freewheel at each end, which is a bit strange.

    Weight I understand to be a hair under 30lb (inc Reverb), which is OK in my book for a tough bike that doesn’t need looking after. (you could probably knock a pound, maybe 2 off the build by throwing money at it).

    The swinging dropouts where rather neat too. All in all, it looked like a very finished product.


    Rik
    Member

    Was there not lots of issues with the nicolai (early adopters of pinion gearboxes) pinion bikes? Slipping gears much like the alfine 11s (obviously for different reasons)?

    Premier Icon oxym0r0n
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    Lush! Needs some blue pin stickers 😉

    Look forward to seeing a 29er version 😀

    rs
    Member

    I must be missing something as to my eyes it looks like the chainring is directly connected to the rear cog?

    I’m assuming that to make it work the crankset is rotating independently of the chainring with two different drive axles?

    Ah… Clever… didn’t notice that!

    PhilO
    Member

    That looks absolutely fantastic! I had a long chat with 18 bikes’ frame builder at Bespoked Bristol 6 months ago. The bike they had there used an aluminium BB cradle with tigged-on stubs of tube which were then bonded into the ends of steel tubes used for the main frame. This one looks like they’ve found a way to do the full build in steel.

    I want! 🙂

    Will definitely have to drop them a line next time I visit friends in the Peak District.

    Wow, looks neat. Although considering the back wheel is about slammed, the chainstays look about 10mm to long.

    Premier Icon 18BikesMatt
    Subscriber

    Thanks for all the comments guys, we’ve worked hard on it so it’s nice for it to get noticed.

    To answer a few questions:

    We’ve not heard any reliability problems, the customer’s bike that was at Bespoked Bristol has been performing fine since then. Only time will tell really but it looks good as far as we can see.

    The reason for 2 freewheels is to protect the gearbox, I asked Pinion if I could use a fixed hub and they said no.

    The chainstays are 425mm in the centre of the dropout adjustment range (which is about where they are now). We will be making a few changes to the bridge (that’s Pinion’s name for the mounting bracket) so customer bikes will have better tyre clearance and we’d be able to go shorter if required too. Obviously chainstay length will depend on the design of frame and we can build to anything. The small front chainring does confuse matters as it’s only a 24t.

    Price: We are charging £2450 which is essentially our custom frame price+pinion+adjustable dropouts+bridge (£1000+1100+150+200). For reference a Rohloff RRP is £1050 and ends up closer to £1200 by the time you’ve built it into a wheel and got the necessary fitting parts. This can be any kind of bike as the gearbox is suited to lots of applications, 29er/26/650/cargo/touring etc are all possible. We had to build the demo bike in such a way that it is comparable for most people, hence 26″ wheels and a conventional geometry. If you have any further questions or would like to discuss a frame, please email me directly at @18bikes.co.uk">matt@18bikes.co.uk

    Hope this helps!
    Matt

    PS We are also working on some cheaper ‘production’ frames so keep an eye on the site if you don’t want/need a custom frame but fancy something UK made with some nice little touches.

    The chainstays are 425mm in the centre of the dropout adjustment range (which is about where they are now). We will be making a few changes to the bridge (that’s Pinion’s name for the mounting bracket) so customer bikes will have better tyre clearance and we’d be able to go shorter if required too. Obviously chainstay length will depend on the design of frame and we can build to anything. The small front chainring does confuse matters as it’s only a 24t.

    Yeh looking at it again, I looked at the gapr between the rear tyre and the seat tube, but the centre of the crank spindle/bb sppears to be set slightly behind the seat tube?

    I reckon about 16.5″ is prime for chainstays.

    Good luck with it.

    neilforrow
    Member

    Proper bo that. Want. Badly. Have been following pinion for years and finally someone has got it to market in a good looking and relatively sensible package.

    My pockets aren’t deep enough yet, but man it’s on the cards.

    Matt, can you confirm the weight of the demo?

    That aside, even if it is a bit portly, shouldnt matter too much as it will be central and low. Better that than it all out back.

    I can see you selling a few of these.

    Premier Icon 18BikesMatt
    Subscriber

    The bb centre is in the normal position relative to the seattube.

    Demo bike is 29.8lbs without pedals, but that is with a 160mm Slant on it. A 120mm build would be a touch lighter. It is very balanced, nicely weighted in the air compared to a Rohloff or Alfine bike (and even normal gears)

    Matt

    monkeyfudger
    Member

    Want! Need Blenderish geo/bike with a normal seat tube angle please. If only I had the cash.

    Good work fella! I like.

    I’ve been riding a Pinion on a Helius AC since March and it’s been faultless so far.

    The small front chainring does confuse matters as it’s only a 24t.

    I could have sworn my chainring was slightly larger than the rear sprocket whereas those look the same size. If it’s still a 26″ bike that suggests the lowest gear would be even lower than mine and mines already super low.

    I asked Pinion if I could use a fixed hub and they said no.

    Interesting. Original plan was to run fixed on the rear – I didn’t know they’d that was their position now. To be honest, a constantly moving chain (which we had on the Nicolai Nucleon) is a bit disturbing. What would be ideal is cartridge single speed hub with through axle to give less dish on the rear wheel but no-one seems to make one (and SS hubs seem to come up heavy anyway).

    Premier Icon 18BikesMatt
    Subscriber

    The rings are different sizes, 2 teeth diff, although it might be 26 front not 24 but it’s still pretty small either way.

    We’re using Pinion’s own hubs, they are rebranded Acros so really nice quality and available in all the axle sizes. They’ve upped the pawl count and offset to increase the pick up speed which is nice. The rear is also the widest flange spacing I’ve seen on a singlespeed hub so it’s an incredibly stiff wheel despite being ‘only’ an Arch EX. Certainly stiffer than when we’ve done the same on a Pro2 singlespeed. I think with the Pinion hub you can get away with a lighter rim so it offsets the weight of the singlespeed hub (although I didn’t weigh it so I don’t know how hefty it is)

    Matt

    Premier Icon sweaman2
    Subscriber

    Any chance of a close up/ explanation of how the BB interfaces with the gear box?

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
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    sweaman2 wrote:

    Any chance of a close up/ explanation of how the BB interfaces with the gear box?

    http://pinion.eu/PDF/Pinion_P1.18_Owner’s%20Manual_2_web_ENG.pdf
    Pages 24/25 show it well

    Interesting project really, everyone ready for grip shift 🙂

    Premier Icon sweaman2
    Subscriber

    Thanks. Makes sense although not how I had envisioned it.

    Premier Icon Onzadog
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    I really like the idea of that. Belt drive would be great but I’m out until pinion start making shorter cranks!

    rosscopeco
    Member

    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder….and I love that build.

    FTIW and in comparison to my 29er Rohloff build onto a tweaked Cotic Solaris frame. They look like the same dropouts as I used, SS paragon swingers. The final build weight was 28.66lbs which included, pedals a KS Lev and Brooks saddle 😀

    Rohloff 29er

    I’ve since that thread had the seat stays replaced with DB 10mm S bend Columbus steel which has surprisingly dropped a few more oz from the over all rig 😆

    Lovely! Definitely needs a belt drive, though.

    PhilO
    Member

    …great but I’m out until pinion start making shorter cranks!

    Unfortunately, arthritic knees mean I’m in a similar position, needing160 or 165mm cranks. Mind you, when you’re spending £2.5k the cost of shortening cranks isn’t a deal-breaker.

    Re. Using a fixed hub, I reckon this would be a bad idea, even if pinion allowed it. Anybody fancy getting a finger caught during a crash? 😯

    bencooper
    Member

    There was a Shimano derailleur system in the ’80s which had the freewheel at the cranks instead of in the back wheel. The advantage was that you could change gear while freewheeling down a hill. The disadvantage was that mechanics kept losing fingertips.

    Premier Icon 18BikesMatt
    Subscriber

    Belt drive would be an easier option, we didn’t do it as we’d not heard anything to convince us it’s needed though. Pinion do beltdrive cogs and we could easily put a splitter in the seatstay, for no extra cost, so the only extra cost would be the belt compared to a chain.

    I’m not sure the cranks would lend themselves to be shortened, they are heavily machined on the back side. I know Pinion were in talks with someone else about having cranks made but as yet I know of no alternative. As far as I know Pinion will be adding other lengths, hopefully they are watching this thread and taking notes

    Houns
    Member

    I’d love one. However I’d need to find £2.5k and get over my hatred of twist shifts

    Premier Icon 18BikesMatt
    Subscriber

    There you go Houns, just need to wait a while for them to actually make them. If they are reasonably priced (and actually get made) we may stick a set on the demo bike.

    The shifter is actually really nice, it’s the same diameter as the grip so you don’t notice it’s there and due to the way the cables can be set up (much like a rohloff)it doesn’t move around unless you want it to. It does mean you can make huge shifts in one go though.

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