Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 92 total)
  • 11/12 speed… I don’t really get it
  • Premier Icon coconut
    Free Member

    I’m running a nice simple 1 x 10 Shimano set up (32 – 11/46T), it works perfectly, is cheap to replace and easy to set up and fix. Recently there are more and more posts on here regarding gearing issues on 11 and particuarly 12 speed set ups. Seems the Cassettes on 12 speed are wearing quickly and issues with the rear mech alignment set up/shifting. I’m guessing the faster wearing cassette issues are due to the thinner diameter cogs required on 11/12 and thinner chains. I don’t really get the selling point of 11/12 speed, except the obvious different gearing ratios. What am I missing ?

    Premier Icon weeksy
    Full Member

    It’s that simple, it’s a bigger rear cassette. That’s the reason people run them.

    If you could get a 50T setup on a 10sp, we’d all run that.

    Maybe we as riders have got lazy instead of grinding out a 36T cassette we now spin a 50T.

    Premier Icon joshvegas
    Free Member

    pfft my only geared mountain bike is 1×8

    Its 7 worse than a singlespeed.

    Premier Icon intheborders
    Free Member

    I’ve used 9 thru 12 and TBH I don’t believe that the 11/12 speeds systems wear any quicker or are more fragile. Use 1x and 11 or 12 on my gravel, XC and enduro bikes.

    Gear-wise, depends where you ride and how fit you are.

    Premier Icon coconut
    Free Member

    Sure the 50T brings some advantage over a 46T, just seems recently lots of issues with 12 speed in particualr. Could it be that the 1×12 set up with a 50T is really pushing the limits of chain lines and components etc ?

    Premier Icon jezzep
    Full Member

    Hey there,

    Good thread I have a multitude of bikes from 3×9 to 1×12. To be honest I like them all, sometimes I like the range of the 3×9 but like the simplicity of the 1x setups. For sure the 3x setups or even the 2×10 are cheaper to maintain. All I can say is thank god I can buy SunRace cassettes because they are a damn site cheaper than the Shimano or SRAM ones 😉

    JeZ

    Premier Icon ogden
    Free Member

    I’ve had no more issues with 11/12 speed than I ever did with anything else.

    Premier Icon Andy_Sweet
    Free Member

    OP you’re missing the many thousands of people running a wide range of gears, with good shifting, who’ve got nothing to moan about on tinternet.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    What am I missing ?

    1 or 2 extra gears, that’s all.

    I have lots of steep climbs here and I ride road to get to trails, so I want as wide a range as I can. But I like the simplicity and mud clearance of 1x and being able to use a nice dropper lever. Currently on 1×11 and I don’t have issues.

    If you were to go back in time 15 years you’d still see people posting about shifting issues. It’s just that now you see 1×11/12 issues being posted be wise that’s what people are riding.

    Premier Icon davros
    Free Member

    Every 11 speed set up I’ve had has worked really well and been very durable. Ended up with shimano 12 speed on a new bike and it’s been fine. I was skeptical after reading such threads but I’ve had no issues with set up or durability. My chains seem to last longer on the 12 speed set up.

    But had I never tried 12 speed I’d be perfectly happy with Shimano 11-46.

    Premier Icon Rockhopper
    Free Member

    My 1×11 set up is 3000 miles old and apart from changing the chain four times its been trouble free and still shifts perfectly. I am religious with my cleaning and lubeing regime though.

    Premier Icon Jamz
    Free Member

    Every 11 speed set up I’ve had has worked really well and been very durable. Ended up with shimano 12 speed on a new bike and it’s been fine. I was skeptical after reading such threads but I’ve had no issues with set up or durability. My chains seem to last longer on the 12 speed set up.

    I have currently done over 5000 miles on a Sram AXS 1×12 speed chain and its still not worn to 0.5. It is on the road bike but it’s not even kept particularly clean. Quite amazing really.

    Premier Icon a11y
    Full Member

    I’m currently 1×11 on all 4 of my bikes. One of them was 10-sp and when it wore out I replaced with 11-sp for simplicity/sharing of spares – no other reason. Currently 11-46t with 30t chainring is enough range for me but in the process of swapping one bike to 10-42 with an all-steel SRAM cassette, hopefully for added durability (I’ve worn out the big cogs in an SLX M7000 11-46t cassette in a very short period of time).

    I’ve yet to try 12-sp but inevitably will probably end up on it sometime. It’d be an expensive swap over if I was to do all 4 bikes, even gradually, due to the need for different freehubs.

    Premier Icon devash
    Free Member

    I’ve never had any issues with either Shimano 11 speed (M8000) nor the 52t 12 speed GX Eagle setup I have on my new bike. Wear rates have been the same as any 9 or 10 speed setup I have used. The only gearing that seems to last forever is the older 7 / 8 speed stuff. I still run Shimano 8 speed on my wife’s bike.

    Essential tool for your toolbox = mech hanger alignment gauge

    Watch all the free Park Tool gear setup guides as well as their video on how to use the aforementioned mech hanger alignment gauge. SRAM Eagle seems to be really sensitive to B-Tension. The plastic gauge they make helps get it dialled in. Once set up its been perfect. Super crisp shifting.

    I am religious with my cleaning and lubeing regime though.

    This too. Reduced tolerances on 11 / 12 speed mean that a gunked-up drivetrain is going to misbehave sooner.

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Free Member

    OP you’re missing the many thousands of people running a wide range of gears, with good shifting, who’ve got nothing to moan about on tinternet.

    Ha, very succinctly put.

    I was gonna say similar. I am on 11sp myself, and my 10-46t cassettes have just about enough range.

    I have my prejudices against 12 speed, but they are more about more vulnerable rear mechs and potentially finnicky indexing than cog durability.

    My 11sp cassettes (Sram and Sunrace) have been remarkably durable. And my indexing (Shimano) generally excellent.

    Premier Icon steve_b77
    Free Member

    I’ve had middle ground 11 speed (SLX), posh 11 speed (XTR) and now posh 12 speed (XTR), my eldest has cheap 10 speed (Deore) and is about to move to middle ground 12 speed (mainly SLX with a smattering of XT) and I’ve absolutely no qualms about any of it whatsoever.

    The 12 doesn’t wear any quicker, is no harder to set up, gives you all the range without clunky big steps at the low end, and on XTR at least in a combined 9000+km I’ve never had need to even adjust the cable tension on the rear mech.

    The M9100 XTR chains are absolutely phenomenal – granted I kind of look after mine, as in I clean the cassette and chain ring and keep the chain sweet with SquirtLube- but it took over 1800km to get anywhere near 0.5% worn before I changed it.

    I have my prejudices against 12 speed, but they are more about more vulnerable rear mechs and potentially finnicky indexing than cog durability.

    I think a lot of that is down to you only see the bad posts on the internets, once they’re set up right (not even remotely hard for anyone with a modicum of technical ability) and you actually have the correct gearing in place for where you ride, so you’re not spending loads of time in the 3 biggest (alloy on XT & XTR) cogs it lasts just as well as 11 speed.

    Premier Icon sharkattack
    Free Member

    12 speed GX Eagle here.

    Nothing to report.

    Previously 11 speed XT.

    Also no issues.

    Premier Icon honourablegeorge
    Free Member

    coconut
    What am I missing ?

    People buying/fitting new gearing are the ones who have problems, and those people are buying 1×12, hence you hearing more about it

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Free Member

    I think a lot of that is down to you only see the bad posts on the internets

    A bit, but I briefly tried 12 speed and damaged the SLX mech on about the third ride. Maybe just bad luck, but it did seem to sit noticeably lower and to be a bit flimsy.

    And friends had horrible trouble with GX 12sp rear mechs self-destructing. Was a design fault fixed there though?

    Premier Icon nickc
    Full Member

    Seems the Cassettes on 12 speed are wearing quickly and issues with the rear mech alignment set up/shifting.

    I’d say that the mix of GX, XO1 that I’ve currently got is the most hardest wearing group-set I’ve ever owned, I’ve changed inner cable and adjusted the b tension a coupler of times and that’s it over 3 plus years and 5000kms

     I don’t really get the selling point of 11/12 speed, except the obvious different gearing ratios. What am I missing ?

    If you ride in places that used to have you drop into the granny, then you more or less got the same range with 12sp, whereas your 10 speed doesn’t quite have the same range. that’s it. If you don’t think you need that, there’s no point in buying it, but that’s also true of every gearing system that’s ever existed

    Premier Icon Scienceofficer
    Free Member

    Theres always a percentage of any given population of users that end up bleating something along the lines of

    ‘Wah! New! Different! I dont understand it as well! I’ve had some trouble with new stuff!’

    Many of these issues are interelated or just bad luck, which, if it happena on new gear must be cause its rubbish, right?.

    My take on GX Eagle. I blew up a mech and chain on my second ride when its was new in 2017, but that was in a rocky shute with chunder flying all over the place.

    Since then, I’ve found mechs last about the same as 10 speed, the cassettes are bomb proof and as long as you buy x01 chains or above they last as well as anything previously. X-sync 2 tooth profiling is also the best there is IMO. It lasts really quite a long time and runs flawlessly and quietly with much better resistance to chainsuck than more square edged designs.

    Premier Icon jimmy
    Full Member

    Quite timely as I’ve just scored a 9 speed, 26″ BFe to do up. It currently has 3×9 and I’m going to replace that with an old 1×11 drivetrain I took off my “good” bike recently. Why? Mostly aesthetics really.

    Premier Icon steve_b77
    Free Member

    And friends had horrible trouble with GX 12sp rear mechs self-destructing. Was a design fault fixed there though?

    I might be wrong, but I think the SRAM stuff sits further out than the Shimano stuff, that a no doubt there’s some inexpensive plastic / muck metal bit in the GX that will be weaker than the carbon / stainless / Ti bits in the top end stuff

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    it did seem to sit noticeably lower

    I did think this could be an issue, particularly if you are on smaller wheels and fit 12sp. Surely the cage is longer?

    Premier Icon stevextc
    Free Member

    If you could get a 50T setup on a 10sp, we’d all run that.

    No we wouldn’t… I think you can anyway but I certainly can for my 11sp and don’t because I can’t see the point of having a gear you don’t use… I have a 46 on one set of wheels I put on for inners but other than that it’s not used in my local riding.

    A11y

    I’m currently 1×11 on all 4 of my bikes. One of them was 10-sp and when it wore out I replaced with 11-sp for simplicity/sharing of spares – no other reason. Currently 11-46t with 30t chainring is enough range for me but in the process of swapping one bike to 10-42 with an all-steel SRAM cassette, hopefully for added durability (I’ve worn out the big cogs in an SLX M7000 11-46t cassette in a very short period of time)

    I’ve yet to try 12-sp but inevitably will probably end up on it sometime. It’d be an expensive swap over if I was to do all 4 bikes, even gradually, due to the need for different freehubs.

    This EXACTLY…. except I have steel sunrace….

    I don’t really get the selling point of 11/12 speed, except the obvious different gearing ratios. What am I missing ?

    11sp chains are cheaper than 10sp….
    I usually pay a tenner for 11sp (PC1110)… but been forced to pay £13 lately… 🙁

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Free Member

    I might be wrong, but I think the SRAM stuff sits further out than the Shimano stuff, that a no doubt there’s some inexpensive plastic / muck metal bit in the GX that will be weaker than the carbon / stainless / Ti bits in the top end stuff

    From hazy memory, I think it was more something to do with the jockey wheels jamming and causing the mech to explode?

    Premier Icon nickc
    Full Member

    Surely the cage is longer?

    Yep I think it is. Hasn’t made any appreciable difference though. Having said that I’m not a mech smasher, if you are a mech smasher it’s something to consider I guess.

    Premier Icon franciscobegbie
    Free Member

    I haven’t noticed any problems. I’ve had 2 or 3 NX setups now, and have found them the easiest setup of any that I’ve used, smooth in use and pretty resilient. No snapped chains either, which obviously means I’m going to snap my chain next time out, doesn’t it?

    Premier Icon Superficial
    Free Member

    OP you’re missing the many thousands of people running a wide range of gears, with good shifting, who’ve got nothing to moan about on tinternet.

    Indeed. To add to this, most people who’ve bought any new drivetrain in the last 7-8 years are going to be on 11 or 12 speed. Which is basically everyone here bar a few (righteous) outliers. 10spd is mostly fine too, but aside from the range, you’re also missing out on 10+ years of design evolution. 12 speed is good, it works.

    I think what you’re perhaps getting at is whether we could have all the current range and shifting tech with only 10 cogs not 12, and would that have some advantages? I am not a bike engineer but I suspect the answer is “yes and no”. The gaps on a 10-52 cassette are pretty big, even on 12spd. They’d be significantly worse if there were only 10 cogs / 9 intervals.

    P.S. I’m OK with calling them cogs.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Full Member

    I think Box do a 9sp (the snappily named Box One) cassette that has 11-50 range, and that’s supposed to be very good.

    Premier Icon rone
    Free Member

    I’d say that the mix of GX, XO1 that I’ve currently got is the most hardest wearing group-set I’ve ever owned, I’ve changed inner cable and adjusted the b tension a coupler of times and that’s it over 3 plus years and 5000kms

    Same here. Think things have just got better across the board.

    In the old days I was always tuning stuff and changing cables. Barely do a thing now.

    Got 11/12 SRAM. And recently wireless SRAM it’s amazing.

    Premier Icon a11y
    Full Member

    Good point made above re gaps between cogs: wider range on <11sp wouldn’t be ideal, even on 11-sp SLX I find the bigger gaps at the top of the cassette less than ideal and is another reason I’m trying 10-42 SRAM on one bike:

    11-sp SLX M7000 11-46: 46-37-32-28-24-21-19-17-15-13-11
    11-sp SRAM XG1150 10-42: 42-36-32-28-24-21-18-16-14-12-10

    Smaller gaps at the top of the SRAM cassette. I’m dropping from a 30t to 28t chainring at the same time to maintain the same low end, yet its still giving me a bigger top end 30/11 vs 28/10.

    I imagine 12-sp will be even better re gaps but it’s another level of expense for me.

    Premier Icon spicer
    Free Member

    I think the gigantic rear cassettes are pointless. If you need that low of a gear, you’re better off (and quicker) walking. I have 32t chainring with 42t cassette, I don’t think anything easier than that is necessery.

    I also think the easier bigger gears are also making us weaker. You used to be forced to muscle up climbs, now you stick it in an easy gear and spin up at your leisure.

    None of my SRAM or Shimano 11 speed shifts anywhere as nicely as my old 10 speed SRAM X9 on my ‘old’ hardtail.

    Premier Icon luket
    Full Member

    I have had setup issues with 12 speed so I do think it’s a little more finnicky than 11, but most people don’t and once you’ve got it running right it’s running right. I suspect it’s less tolerant than older systems to either slightly out of alignment hangers or slightly out of spec B-tension, but both of those can be got right and should’ve been before anyway.

    I can well imagine the increase in both width of cassette and cassette gear spread will drive some extra wear and/or sensitivity. If it does then its a choice you make for the extra gear range.

    I’ve also complained about the durability of a 12 speed Deore mech, but then the durability of 9 speed SRAM I found pretty bad too. 12 speed xt I found better, but it’s a sample size of just 2. Also possible my riding has become a bit harder on kit nowadays.

    In terms of basic reliability my shimano 11 speed stuff might be the best I’ve ever had.

    There is some data somewhere that says some 12 speed chains last longer than the older ones, I think, although I’d be sceptical.

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Free Member

    I also think the easier bigger gears are also making us weaker. You used to be forced to muscle up climbs, now you stick it in an easy gear and spin up at your leisure.

    I’ve never been the punchiest climber, but with wider range cassettes I can muscle up bits that I used to have to push.

    Also, bigger wheels have effectively make our gearing harder anyway, especially if combined with shorter cranks.

    Premier Icon tenacious_doug
    Free Member

    If you need that low of a gear, you’re better off (and quicker) walking.

    I like going out for a bike ride, not a hill walk.

    Premier Icon stumpy01
    Full Member

    spicer
    Free Member
    I think the gigantic rear cassettes are pointless. If you need that low of a gear, you’re better off (and quicker) walking. I have 32t chainring with 42t cassette, I don’t think anything easier than that is necessery.

    Nah, the size of the cassette is largely irrelevant; it’s the combination of cassette & chainring that’s important.
    3×9 was generally run with 22 inner ring & 32 or 34 cassette which are both ‘easier’ than 1x with 32/42. 46 & 50T cassettes get you basically to the equivalent ‘ease’ of the 32 and 34T cassettes as used on 3×9.
    So, most people would have been just as ‘spinny’ historically with 3×9 as they are with dinner plate cassettes.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Full Member

    It was much better when we had smaller range cassettes and a choice of front rings because nobody, ever, complained that they couldn’t set up their front mech.

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Free Member

    So, most people would have been just as ‘spinny’ historically with 3×9 as they are with dinner plate cassettes.

    True, I was comparing with earlier 1x setups.

    Premier Icon Superficial
    Free Member

    I also think the easier bigger gears are also making us weaker. You used to be forced to muscle up climbs, now you stick it in an easy gear and spin up at your leisure.

    There speaks someone who never had 22:36t ratio on a 26″ wheel bike. 22:36 is almost precisely the same ratio as 32:52.

    N.B. it’s worth noting that if you are using 29er wheels and 165mm cranks, the reduced leverage given by that combination makes it feel approx 18% ‘harder’ than the same gear ratio on an older bike with 26″ wheels and 175mm cranks, too. Or, to put it another way, you’d need to change your 32t front sprocket to a (hypothetical) 27t one to give you the same feel at the pedals.

Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 92 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

Thanks for popping by - why not stay a while?IT'S FREE

Sign up as a Singletrack Member and you can leave comments on stories, use the classified ads, and post in our forums, do quizzes and more.

Join us, join in, it’s free, and fun.