So let's say it's tied 2 vs 2, or that only Scotland is against it. Would the other three have the power to force Scotland to host it?
Or what about another "Iraq" war. Scotland votes against it, the other three vote in favour. Is Scotland able to veto use of its military facilities?
I use these as examples, the same could apply to any of the 4 constituents. I just don't see it as a realistic option and, as I already asked, why would England vote to share power in this way?
No - It would be a majority - of delegates to the senate
I agree tho with the imbalance in populations its quite possibly a no go. But I do think it worth looking at
What you are promoting there is that the minority can override the wishes of the majority
TBF, that's already the case in our Parliamentary democracy with FPTP voting.
Good examples scotroutes
Why would england vote to reduce power - if its accepted in a binding referendum ( the new constitutional arrangements) then it happens. also if its federalism or no more UK?
As I said - perhaps unworkable but worth exploring.
Have you forgotten Brexit already? The English electorate do not want to be in any sort of union over which they do not have total control. A FedUK would be a step away from that. We already know from polling that Brexiteers were happy to see the break up of the UK in order to obtain freedom from the EU.
And here we are with a near 50% over-run on costs of some of the building projects that support the Trident programme… £1.3Bn over budget already and they’ve barely started on the expensive bits!
Any yet folk thrash themselves into a frenzy over the royal family BeCOz wE P4y FOr ThEm.
A drop in the ocean (no pun intended) compared to a huge firework we can never use
Anyway
I thought it interesting the huge change in direction from labour in Scotland. Pro secopnd ref, pro independent scottish labour
Oh, if there's any sort of fence, Labour will find a way of sitting on it.
AFAIK there has been no actual change of direction, just an option that they might want to think about it.
A little harsh from the quotes scotroutes. The scottish labour leadership have accepted the democratic case for a second ref. thats a big step
pro independent scottish labour
That's not going to happen, best you'll get is pro ref.
tjagain
Member
A little harsh from the quotes scotroutes. The scottish labour leadership have accepted the democratic case for a second ref. thats a big step
Worth discussion, they aren't there yet.
I missed an update?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51054407
Scottish Labour could hold a special conference in the spring to decide whether to change its stance on a second independence referendum.
Edditted - looks like I was mixing up my Lennons and Leonards!
OK - no decision made on closer scrutiny but its still a significant shift in position to even be considering this at all.
tjagain
OK – no decision made on closer scrutiny but its still a significant shift in position to even be considering this at all.
It's more desperation tbh, but we'll take it if it comes.
Damm it. I totally agree with every word Boris said. I feel dirty (but I still agree with him)
"personal promise"
What about "the vow" that was promised to us if we rejected independence?
What about Boris' promise that he'd get brexit done by a previous date?
What about Boris' promise that he'd be dead in a ditch if that didn't happen?
What about the promise that the only way to remain in the EU was to reject independence?
Boris using a "personal promise" to deny something is a bit rich isn't it?
BoardinBob
Subscriber
“personal promise”What about “the vow” that was promised to us if we rejected
What didn't they deliver from the half arsed and extremely limited vow? Seems to me it's been entirely satisfied thus far?
"extensive new powers"
Nope - not delivered at all.
Wow - I don't think I have ever seen a Minister to Minister letter with a grammatical error !!
(referendums - you think Boris the self styled classicist would spot that - I suspect he didn't even read it)
tjagain
Member
“extensive new powers”Nope – not delivered at all.
What powers does the Scotland Act 2016 devolve to the Scottish Parliament?
The Scotland Act 2016 devolves the following powers to the Scottish Parliament:
Powers to set rates and thresholds of Income Tax, and devolution of Air Passenger Duty.
Some social security powers including disability and carers’ benefits, Winter Fuel Allowance.
The power to create new benefits in devolved areas and to top-up reserved benefits.
The power to adjust aspects of Universal Credit in Scotland including the housing element.
Devolution of some employment services.
Devolution of the Crown Estate in Scotland.
The arrangements for elections to the Scottish Parliament.
Devolution of Tribunals in reserved areas – such as the Employment Tribunals – in Scotland.
Devolution of additional powers over equal opportunities, including to legislate for gender balance on public boards.
Devolution of British Transport Police.
Very limited powers on tax and deliberately so to make it a poisoned chalice. Its nothing like we were told the vow meant
The vow said nothing, extensive is a relative term and can mean anything.
It meant the 2016 act. Therefore... half arsed vow satisfied.
I'll stick my neck out and say that 2020 is too soon, there's at least one other major thing to get out of the way before it should be looked at. Once the dust has settled, then lets look at ref2. OTOH I get that she's attempting to strike whilst the iron's hot
referendums – you think Boris the self styled classicist would spot that – I suspect he didn’t even read it
Referendums is perfectly correct.
Not going to happen - unless Johnson, at some future time in his premiership, is under pressure and his position is under threat.
Referendums/referenda - for the classicists or pedants.
I’ll stick my neck out and say that 2020 is too soon, there’s at least one other major thing to get out of the way before it should be looked at. Once the dust has settled, then lets look at ref2. OTOH I get that she’s attempting to strike whilst the iron’s hot
Exactly, if they wanted a proper debate and chance to sort it "for a generation" then they'd wait until there was a stable status quo to compare against. Hold it this year and next parliament you can have another referendum once Brexit has become whatever you said/didnt say it is/isnt/whatever.
Referendums is perfectly correct
Well, that's just what somebody with a pro-Boris agendum would say.
It's what anyone who knows what a gerund is would say.
Referenda surely!
Referendums is perfectly correct.
Well, that's what someone with a pro-Boris agendum would say.
It’s what anyone who knows what a gerund is would say.
It looks like a 2 year old attempted to forge his signature.
Can't even write, he is totally unfit to be PM.
It looks like a 2 year old attempted to forge his signature.
Well, it could be worse....
tjagain
Member
Referenda surely!
If you speak latin, mibbe. 😆
Referendums and referenda are both acceptable - well as words anyway.
Have a Thatcher quote to pour oil on troubled flames.
As a nation, [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way.
Thatcher, Margaret. The Downing Street Years. London: Harper Press, 1993. 624; ch. 20. Print.
It’s what anyone who knows what a gerund is would say
Whoosh.
I’ll stick my neck out and say that 2020 is too soon, there’s at least one other major thing to get out of the way before it should be looked at. Once the dust has settled, then lets look at ref2. OTOH I get that she’s attempting to strike whilst the iron’s hot
My thoughts exactly. What's the rush, we've been in the union for long enough another few years won't matter. I'd rather wait to see what my choices are before jumping ship.
And if sturgeon is so sure brexit will be a disaster then why not wait and see. Then once she's proven correct we'll all be desperate for independence. Me included..
whoosh
No - agendum and agenda are derived from gerundives, there is a possibility that referendum could also be a gerundive (in neuter form) but that would mean that referenda would mean a vote on a number of things, not multiple votes hence the preference of the OED for referendums as a plural.
Boris is lying. Again.
There is no mention of any such clause in the Edinburgh Agreement for the referendum.
Can anyone provide a link as to when this "personal promise" was made?
If an offhand remark is to be taken as law, then surely Boris should be dead in a ditch.
Can anyone provide a link as to when this “personal promise” was made?
It's mentioned twice in the white paper, first couple of pages. More of a motivational tactic pre ref than anything else, but it's there. As well as salmond saying it in an interview.
There's heehaw legal about it, but we're stuck with getting it shoved in our face.
Wow, even Labour are getting in on the totalitarian angle.
Lisa Nandy who's aiming to be Labour leader reckons the Spanish treatment of Catalonia is a model Westminster should follow.
So she's ok with the police attacking voters at the polling stations and independence supporting politicians being jailed.
If that's a potential Labour leader, WTF has happened to the Labour Party?
It's another brick in the wall.
I'm convinced Boris wants Scotland Independant.
It's all a win for him, keep telling us naw, appeases all the Tory buffoons/unionist UJ wavers, keeps them all onside, pisses off everyone else by treating us like a child and eventually garnering enough support to vote yes, then his beloved Jerusalem is out of Europe, rid of the non-value adding Scots, and the Tories will be in power in the green and pleasant lands for an eternity.
We can only hope.
The only problem is Nobeer, they need the natural resources, and they aren't quite exhausted yet.
They can have the bloody oil.
