[Closed] F1 Grid Girls under review

Good luck with equal opportunities for your kids who didn't go to Eton and Oxbridge - you're right, no need to change society.

Here's where the bullshit "inequality" thing falls down mate.

We weren't wealthy (both parents came from northern council estates but worked hard to give us a better life than they had).

My youngest sister showed great aptitude for science, my parents pushed school and sixth form teachers & heads of department hard on a weekly basis to ensure she got the level of support she needed. She then got a scholarship to Cambridge to read natural sciences on the basis of her results and aptitude. She's now based in Switzerland working as a material science researcher at a spin off from the university of Zurich.

Did we have any advantage? No. She got there because my parents identified their kid was good at something and did whatever it took and broke down barriers to achieve it. Nothing to do with society, privilege or anything else.

My point is that it's too easy to blame "society" or other bogeymen and spend time and effort complaining about it, when that energy could be better spent dealing at a micro level. Personal responsibility for you and yours.

F1 is supposed to be a sport, not a T&A show.

F1 is a vehicle (SWIDTSTW?!) for the purpose of making money from danger, testosterone, glamour, vanity, noise, speed and multi-millionaire aspirations.

From the vendors of drinking water to the paid orange-u-tan pseudo-groupies, from the branded spanners to the Gillette-ad-looking drivers. All simply a supporting cast to generate cash from punters and for sponsors. It's a perfect circle, and it will go around and around for as long as it continues to attract the teams and punters. The status quo is a massive earner. See also other 'sports'.

One might as well argue that the Big Brother show is 'supposed to be a social experiment'' 😉

Sport has winners and losers. But remember, 'everyone's a winner' at the fairground. Just like the man says.

*Edit - and this: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/nov/29/formula-one-toto-wolff-criticse-all-women-series-plans

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I suggest you read any variety if research in socio-economic advantage and outcomes.

Did we have any advantage? No. She got there because my parents identified their kid was good at something and did whatever it took and broke down barriers to achieve it. Nothing to do with society, privilege or anything else.

Well apart from the advantage of good parents, who worked hard ,strived and pushed for her

And this is what we should be focusing on. Making parents understand the importance of striving, pushing and supporting their own kids, not expecting society to hold doors open.

All 3 of us have done well in our respective and vastly different fields because we were taught that we could do whatever we wanted, and that we'd be supported if we worked hard at it.

WHOOSH

[quote=andyrm ]Here's where the bullshit "inequality" thing falls down mate.

😆 - I don't usually mention this, but guess what sort of school I went to and guess where I went to uni? Don't get the idea I'm jealous of a privilege I haven't had. Yes, I know it's possible to break through the barriers, but I also have very direct experience that it's not equal - like your sister I was lucky enough to have teachers prepared to put extra in to help, not everybody gets that. Meanwhile even with those teachers some of my mates at school weren't quite so good at exams as me - yet I still reckon they were brighter than some of those I met at uni who had been to private schools.

Do you really think society is equal because some kids from non-privileged backgrounds get to go to Oxbridge?

Have you forgotten all the evolutionary reasons you cited - you are now in the novel position of not agreeing with yourself......I assume their is an evolutionary reason for this as well ?

No. I've never denied the existence of the outliers. Susie Wolff, like others, has admitted she's 'not normal' to want to pursue it as a career.

😆

FFS your argument is all over the place and I see no logic at work here at all.
So evolution is the reason women cannot do it except for when women do it.. is that right
WOW 😯

[quote=Malvern Rider ]*Edit - and this: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/nov/29/formula-one-toto-wolff-criticse-all-women-series-plans

Spot on - and the ratios of those competing in karting can't be explained by evolutionary reasons, it's beyond doubt that there's societal influences there as well.

Even if 20% of kids karting participation was female, I don't think you would see any more make it to top flight F1.
The biological clock starts ticking post puberty. Doing risky things becomes genetically unappealing. There is no pay off for women in dangerous sports evolutionary speaking whereas there is for men.

Junkyard- I haven't contradicted myself. I've said that there is no innate imperative for women to take risks in sport. Not that they shouldn't or can't- just that they are less likely for the reasons I've explained.

So evolution is the reason women cannot do it

Yep same with football. The 50 year FA ban on women in football (and the ban on women in motorsports) was also 'evolution' at work. Everything is 'evolution'. Even the Biblical stuff about men and women. They coincide, right? Evolution!

Same reason you don't see so many 'black' people in pro cycling or motorsports. They are more evolutionarily equipped for running and hurdles. Don't believe me? Ask anyone who only partly-understands evolution.

Everything is 'natural' unless it's 'unnatural' 😉

'Societal influences'? That'll be evolution*

*Unless the wrong type of society.

[quote=crosshair ]The biological clock starts ticking post puberty. Doing risky things becomes genetically unappealing. There is no pay off for women in dangerous sports evolutionary speaking whereas there is for men.

Yeah, hence why there are no women taking part in rock climbing, let alone competing at the top level.

Actually, despite the increase in women's football, only 10% of women who support it class themselves as being 'passionate' about football. Men and women consume and participate in sport in different ways and the genetic aspect is a very strong part of that.

Race is not the same because it's not based on tangible genetic differences. The type of sport chosen by males in a given society is where the cultural differences come in. Some people chase plastic sacks of air, others dismembered calf heads on horseback.

Yeah, hence why there are no women taking part in rock climbing, let alone competing at the top level.

Same reason you don't see so many 'black' people in pro cycling or motorsports. They are more evolutionarily equipped for running and hurdles. Don't believe me? Ask anyone who only partly-understands evolution.

Might need to clarify if that's Poe's law or serious.

Same reason the British were so under represented and rubbish. Are we just evolutionarily not cut out for cycling? Nothing to do with the lack of exposure and opportunity until Lottery money came through and we built a load of Velodromes.

Pretty sure if you took the 200m sprint lineup and put them on bikes, you'd have a kick-ass set of track sprinters within a season.

And bring that around to the point of the thread. We can find enough women to fill a track team prepared to risk injuries. So I'm not buying this codswollop spouted up there that women in general aren't competitive.

[quote=crosshair ]So you keep alleging.

Go and check if you like - though maybe the group I climb with and the climbing walls I go to are anomolies, and there's no such person as Shauna Coxsey (the interesting thing there is that if you asked me to name a competition rock climber of either gender she'd be the first and possibly only name I'd come up with).

Besides it is a little different than the examples I've used as it's a solo rather than a team sport.

Ah, like motorsport - oh hang on...

...though it seems you don't know any more about climbing than you do about casual sexism in society.

So now it's about team sports? Do they have to have moving goalposts these team sports to be things only men do?

[quote=thisisnotaspoon ]Might need to clarify if that's Poe's law or serious.

I thought the last sentence clarified the Poe's law position.

Men and women consume and participate in sport in different ways and the genetic aspect is a very strong part of that.

I'd tend to agree with that AFAIK. 'Mating lek' - (ritualised gatherings) of males does play a large part in many spectator sports. Especially in strongly patriarchal cultures.

(Yes I was Poeing on the last post 😉 )

Predictably we have now reached that point where, as in every stw thread, certain posters dismiss every other counter argument as a 'straw man'..a sure sign to step away..

I thought the last sentence clarified the Poe's law position

My poor snowflake brain is so overwhelmed by others testosterone that I just can't tell anymore.

[quote=tpbiker ]Predictably we have now reached that point where, as in every stw thread, certain posters [s]dismiss[/s] every [s]other counter[/s] argument [s]as[/s] is a 'straw man'..a sure sign to step away..

Though to be fair it was like that from the start. If you don't want to be accused of making straw man arguments, don't make straw man arguments (I've provided a handy list of such arguments for you to avoid).

Or have we reached the point of the thread where pointing out other people's straw man arguments is now dismissed as fake news?

apart form the hurdle where their only role in the sport is to be the scantily clad girl.

I wouldn't usually bother replying to a topic once it gets to this stage of the same old tiresome arguing going on that seems to happen about anything remotely controversial.

But as others have pointed out that comment is utter rubbish 😯 Do you honestly believe that? There are loads of women doing all sorts of varied roles in motorsport, I doubt there's many people in the sport these days that see a female race engineer and say "oh look a woman, how quaint" they're just accepted in the way a man would be.

Maybe somebody should tell the person opening the door in this picture that she should be stood infront the car holding a board and wearing lycra as she obviously dosen't know her place 😉

The picture could also be a nice interruption for us knuckle draggers before having to endure another 10 pages of tiresome arguing 😆

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Ah, like motorsport - oh hang on...

Yes exactly. Try turning up at a circuit with just an F1 car and getting it out of the lorry 😆

If that makes it a team sport, then every sport at the top level is a team sport.

Though I reckon you could probably turn up at a karting circuit on your own go for a drive around and go home without anybody to help you.

OTOH try turning up at a climbing wall or a crag on your own and getting to the top.

What exactly is the point you're making here? Oh look, there's a squirrel...

it is a little different than the examples I've used as it's a solo rather than a team sport.

If you'd actually read the stuff I'd linked to then you would have quite clearly read the logic behind what I'm saying and how team sports relate to Lekking behaviour as mentioned by Malvern.

Still doesn't change anything. 'Casual sexism' in motorsport is a construction of the perennially offended. Women are treated ethically regardless of their role in the entire charade!

As Chantel is happy to testify

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/42358512/why-i-loved-being-an-f1-grid-girl

I wouldn't usually bother replying to a topic once it gets to this stage of the same old tiresome arguing going on that seems to happen about anything remotely controversial.

Yup. Continually prolonged by the same old people who've said the same thing 100 times but just can't be seen to back down or not have the last word 🙁
P.s
The only opinion I have on grid girls is that if some women want to do it, and are happy to do so, well good luck to them.

a sure sign to step away..

That was about 6 pages ago. You can either see and accept the implications that it has or you can ignore them with 100's of spurious unrelated things..

If you'd actually read the stuff I'd linked to

5) Nobody is suggesting that the grid girls are poorly treated or that they're not happy to do it.

Meanwhile "perennially offended" (just like "virtue signalling") is an ad hom, hence a sure fire way of telling that somebody is incapable of arguing their point on the facts.

Yes but you would say that snowflake 😉

Continually prolonged by the same old people who've said the same thing 100 times but just can't be seen to back down or not have the last word

[quote=Junkyard ]Ah the well known team sport of running you were using in your earlier citation

Don't be silly Junky, everybody knows running is a team sport as runnerists need somebody to tie their shoelaces for them and help them on with their vest. That's the definition of team sport right, something where other people help you get ready before you go out and compete on your own?

Hang on, I've got it, do the drivers tow around the goalposts for the footballerists, is that where the team sport thing comes in?

So come on then, what would evidence satisfy you that your casual sexism claims are wrong?

Anyone winning this yet?

So come on then, what would evidence satisfy you that your casual sexism claims are wrong?

You'd have to convince me that all the women who I've talked to about this were all wrong. That they were all making up their life stories and experiences. You'd have to convince me that I had imagined the things that my kids have told me and the conversations we'd had. You'd have to convince me my wife was inventing stories for some reason.

This isn't just a theory, you know. This is what many many women experience. I've spoken to many women about this, and read a lot of words written by women. To be honest when I was younger I dismissed feminists just like you do, because I thought the battle had been won. But I now realise that whilst legally we're far better off than we were, socially we still have some way to go.

If you'd never seen a black swan, you'd swear they didn't exist. If I have seen one, I'd swear they did exist. You'd never be able to convince me they didn't exist because I'd seen one. It's like that.

If none of those ladies are actually put girls then your argument is invalid. How many pit girls have you discussed this with ?

Definitely what people like you say on Burka threads

I assume you have no view on female circumcision either then and women who object can be ignored as they have never had it done.

Its such an obviously poor argument i cannot believe someone wrote it down for others to read.

I assume you have no view on female circumcision either then and women who object can be ignored as they have never had it done.

When the uk rules pit girls unlawful .......

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/endthread

I was just using your "logic" against you ; the side step allows me to know you accept its poor and wont admit it, we both know this however much you wish to try and deflect.

PS the govt cannot ban them remember only those who have been pit girls are allowed opinions so it did not even support your argument.

You were not using my logic. How can you compare body mutilation to being a pit girl. That just shows how little of an argument you have. Other than fgm being illegal, woman don't do it of their own free will. That's completely different from what a pit girl does.

I don't care if there are pit girls or not. However I have chatted to quite a few unlike probably most other people in this thread thatbwant to see them stopped

I assume you have no view on female circumcision either then and women who object can be ignored as they have never had it done.

When you use female circumcision in an argument about pit girls you loose all credibility Junkyard. If you can't see that your a bit lost mate 🙁

I assume you have no view on female circumcision either then and women who object can be ignored as they have never had it done.