[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Problem being project fear was the label from those who disliked experts...

Actually, I think you'll find that it was the label from those who had enough of experts from organisations from acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong.

You see, because presenting that partial comment regards experts without further explanation is what people would call "being potentially misleading"

molgrips - Member
Has anyone added up the cost of all the EU institutions we will need to replace the EU ones? The money we will need to spend to duplicate the work that the EU are doing?

Actually, I think you'll find that it was the label from those who had enough of experts from organisations from acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong.

Its worth repeating, below are the opening articles to the Treaty on European Union. You voted brexit then you voted to reject these values in favour of god knows what. I voted remain because I absolutely and fundamentally do not trust the idiots at Westminster to protect these rights - membership of the EU afforded me this protection, brexiteers have taken this away from me hence I'm still quite cross about the whole thing . The EU is far from perfect but it better than the alternative - we are now at the mercy of whoevers hate filled bilge spouting agenda can be shouted loudest. Well done cinnamon girl.

Article 2

The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail.

Article 3

(ex Article 2 TEU)

1. The Union's aim is to promote peace, its values and the well-being of its peoples.

2. The Union shall offer its citizens an area of freedom, security and justice without internal frontiers, in which the free movement of persons is ensured in conjunction with appropriate measures with respect to external border controls, asylum, immigration and the prevention and combating of crime.

3. The Union shall establish an internal market. It shall work for the sustainable development of Europe based on balanced economic growth and price stability, a highly competitive social market economy, aiming at full employment and social progress, and a high level of protection and improvement of the quality of the environment. It shall promote scientific and technological advance.

It shall combat social exclusion and discrimination, and shall promote social justice and protection, equality between women and men, solidarity between generations and protection of the rights of the child.

It shall promote economic, social and territorial cohesion, and solidarity among Member States.

It shall respect its rich cultural and linguistic diversity, and shall ensure that Europe's cultural heritage is safeguarded and enhanced.

4. The Union shall establish an economic and monetary union whose currency is the euro.

5. In its relations with the wider world, the Union shall uphold and promote its values and interests and contribute to the protection of its citizens. It shall contribute to peace, security, the sustainable development of the Earth, solidarity and mutual respect among peoples, free and fair trade, eradication of poverty and the protection of human rights, in particular the rights of the child, as well as to the strict observance and the development of international law, including respect for the principles of the United Nations Charter.

6. The Union shall pursue its objectives by appropriate means commensurate with the competences which are conferred upon it in the Treaties.

How very true. Given that none of the doomsday predictions have occurred, the wise have time to reveal themselves

Too many pages to read ...

Funny old day. Very positive press conference and warm words from Junker, interesting he chose to point out that it was Tusk who had insisted “no questions from the press”, given most European press only has a passing interest this is clearly an attempt by Tusk to protect May as the alternative for the EU is much much worse.

So I read the draft text which was supposedly agreed by the DUP. “Regulatory alignment” and on specific areas relevant to “NI and Ireland trade” - now that probanly means many things to many people, it’s as vague as “sufficient progress”. I can see the DUP would be happy given the vagueness and assurances from UK Government.

So what changed ? Quite possibly / probably the media reporting. It’s just not acceptable to the DUP voters for the press to be saying NI will remain in the single market / customs union when the UK will not. DUP then had no choice.

Ireland will not block talks, no deal means WTO (a massive killer for them economically, truely catestrophic) and no money for the EU is a deep financial black hole for the 27 -something they face in 2021 have already been arguing about.

Started well then fell over by 2 and 3 (possibly due to 4)

DUP never agreed the text

no deal means WTO (a massive killer for them economically, truely catestrophic)

But great for us, yeah?

Except, they'll qualify for WTO and we won't.

Well done thm, you’ve managed to move yourself in to the ‘skip and ignore’ clutch of posters, lead by chewk, for your constant failure to do anything but fail to answer questions and parrot the same old not as clever as you are think they are lines.

At least ninfan revels in his right wing, swivel eyed nut job persona and that makes him worth reading.

Thanks. I’ll move on to outright lies next week. Do try to fit in 😉

Or perhaps some charm

Well done cinnamon girl.

Nice 😯

no deal means WTO (a massive killer for them economically, truely catestrophic)

Less than 15% of Ireland's exports are to the UK.

Yes, it will be the worst hit of all the rEU countries if no deal can be reached.

More than 40% of the UK's exports are to the rEU.

Then add all the countries that we currently have trade deals with…

Ireland exported €101.8bn in services in 2014 and €18bn
(18%) of these exports went to the United Kingdom.
Imports of services amounted to €109.4bn in 2014 and
€11.4bn (10%) of these imports were from the UK.
In 2015 Ireland exported €112.4bn of goods and
€15.6bn (13.9%) of these goods went to the UK. The
top 5 categories of goods exported to the UK in 2015
were: Meat & meat preparations (€1.9bn), Medical &
pharmaceutical products (€1.5bn), Organic chemicals
(€1.0bn), Essential oils, perfume materials; toilet &
cleansing preps (€0.8bn) and Dairy products & birds’
eggs (€0.8bn).
Imports of goods amounted to €70.1bn in 2015 and
€18bn (25.7%) of these imported goods arrived from the
UK. The top 5 categories of goods imported from the UK
in 2015 were: Petroleum, petroleum products & related
materials (€1.9bn), Gas, natural & manufactured (€1.1bn),
Miscellaneous manufactured articles n.e.s. (€1.1bn),
Essential oils, perfume materials; toilet & cleansing preps
(€0.8bn) and All other commodities and transactions
(€0.7bn).

Mike - I took no notice of 'project fear' nor the emblazoned NHS bus but I do recollect hazily the UK joining the EEC as it was then called. It seemed a brilliant idea and did work well but it eventually became something it was not supposed to be. This is why so many voted for Brexit.

@cg Perfect summary of why my parents, lifelong Labour voters and who voted Yes 40 years ago voted Leave last year. Common Market to European [b]Union[/b].

I’m going to release a joint statement on behalf of myself, Jammers and Hurty in the morning towards the EU, clearly stating our agreed position, and principles on this thread, going forward

I won’t bother running it pastthem. I’m sure it’ll all be fine 🙂

I'm just going to leave this here.

If you're in favour of leaving, this is a small example of soundbites from people who agree with you.

https://www.byline.com/column/67/article/1966

Perfect summary of why my parents, lifelong Labour voters and who voted Yes 40 years ago voted Leave last year. Common Market to European [b]Union[/b].

Yeah, unions are bad and evil, it's shit when people work together. What next, dogs and cats living together?

You do realise, don't you, that our own MEPs have been a driving force in shaping the EU for years? You know how many laws we've voted on in the EU that haven't gone our way? None, zero, zip, nada, hasn't happened.

And you want to walk away and leave them to their own devices. If the EU is as corrupt / dangerous / undemocratic / whatever as the leavers claim it is, that very point alone should scare you shitless. This big scary monster of an organisation right on our doorstep, and you want *less* control over it? Anyone who genuinely thinks that must be absolutely barking. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer; you can't "take back control" by actually relinquishing control.

So Oooh, do we think we can tell?

Heaven from hell?

Blue skies from rain?

teamhurtmore -
Thanks. I’ll move on to outright lies next week. Do try to fit in

jambalaya
@cg Perfect summary of why my parents, lifelong Labour voters and who voted Yes 40 years ago voted Leave last year.

If you're in favour of leaving, this is a small example of soundbites from people who agree with you.

Charming enough for you THM.

Less than 15% of Ireland's exports are to the UK.

What proportion go through it?

How very true. Given that none of the doomsday predictions have occurred, the wise have time to reveal themselves

Actually all the doomsday predictions seem to be coming true to anyone with more than one eye/

The fall off in EU nurses - predicted and happened. The impossibility of having your cake and eating it - now evident to all. etc etc

Not sure what social circles a lot of folks spin in on STW, mine varies from forklift truck drivers to a few multi millionaires.

At the more hands on end of the scale I have had some very depressing conversations in as much that i did not understand how little a lot of people understand about very basic economics. I jave mentioned before my mate Bob (rampant Brexiteer) moaning about the cost of diesel and as i pointed out the fall in the £ hasnt helped - his response was what the **** has that got to do with the cost of diesel... there are lots of Bob's.

[quote=ninfan ]

It's not true. It doesn't take into account the £100m rebate we get, so the actual figure is around £250m. And that neatly ignores all the money that comes back again.

Sorry, digging back into this one, I can't resist.

It's a lie. Report me for that if you want, but I think you'll find I know which side of the line to tread on that particular issue and I'm simply making a factual statement - people are free to deduce what they like about your character from that. No, it's not even technically true, because we never did send £350m a week, which is the claim you made, not even technically.

The fall off in EU nurses - predicted and happened. The impossibility of having your cake and eating it - now evident to all. etc etc

The pound tanking, tick. The only reason it didn't tank harder was because Mark Carney started printing money.

Corporations leaving for overseas, tick.

What's happening with the EMA? Oh, wait. Euratom, anyone?

[i]And we haven't ****ing left yet[/i] you bloody madman. These were predictions. Warnings of what could happen. PROJECT FEAR!!1! But it's ok, we can sell jam.

Stranger things have happened at sea.

Cats and dogs do enjoy play together as it turns out.

Best buddies:[img] [/img]

I'm just going to leave this here.

If you're in favour of leaving, this is a small example of soundbites from people who agree with you.

https://www.byline.com/column/67/article/1966

So, you’re saying that it’s a lie, or it isn’t a lie?

Thanks Aracer, I missed that.

It's a lie. I'm sorry if it wasn't clear when I said "it's not true," I kind of hoped that these two phrases were broadly synonymous but evidently not.

If I bought something in a sale that was £150 reduced from £350, then when a mate asked "that's cool, how much was it?" and I replied "£350," I'd be lying. Agreed?

We do not, and never have, sent £350m/week to the EU. It's simply not true. It's a lie. Trousers combusting, Pinocchio with a hard-on.

And Leave has admitted that without that lie they'd probably have lost the referendum.

Makes you think. Or at least, it bloody well should do.

The official UK governments are [url= https://www.timloughton.com/sites/www.timloughton.com/files/2017-09/Additional_Data_Paper_-_Northern_Ireland_Trade_Data_and_Statistics__2_.pdf ]here [/url]

NI sales to with rest of UK 4 x that of sales with Ireland, quoting these figures is often misleading because most economies trade most with themselves (66% of total in case of NI), so you are only looking at 34% of which the rest of the UK accounts for more than half.

it's not even technically true, because we never did send £350m a week, which is the claim you made, not even technically.

Then why is it called "Total Debits" in the UK official accounts 😆

[img] [/img]

Credits/Debits
In/Out

Not too hard is it?

What proportion go through it?

A very good point. Most of its road haulage carried exports I suspect.
A big shift to sea haulage will be required … slow…

Ireland would be the worst hit of the rEU counties in the result of no deal, as I said.

What proportion of our nonEU trade goes through the EU?
I suppose that will result in shifting transportation patterns as well.

I just can't picture Jamba's idea of how the UK falling back to WTO rules (negotiated when we are at our most desperate) will be catastrophic for Ireland, but his preferred course of action for [s]us[/s] the UK.

Not too hard is it?

Net/Gross.

Not too hard, is it?

been out for a night ride

check news-

Tory incompetence still making the UK look like a global laughing stock over brexishambles

time for bed

Not too hard is it?

Net/Gross.

The official government statistics didn't list it that way though did they? They officially confirmed it as a credit/debit transaction.

you are upset because the leave campaign used the officially published transactions

its hilarious

And Leave have admitted that without that lie they'd probably have lost the referendum.

And yet you are doing the same, what they actually said was they deliberately used a controversial number because they knew that it would be attacked by the Remain side and that would keep the coverage on an area that was a strength for them. If they had put £200 million on the side of the bus, I can't imagine there are many people who would have said only £200 million, oh well in that case I will vote remain. However it would have significantly effected the coverage. That is why it was important to them.

Not too hard is it?

That being the case presumably you'd have absolutely no issue with people claiming that migration isn't an issue because [url= https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics ]folk are leaving the U.K. at a rate of 342,000 a year?[/url]

As regards whether I'm still in favour, I look at the Tories and think God help us all

When you voted for a referendum called by a Conservative government, who did you think would be "in charge" of the UK leaving the EU?

what they actually said was they deliberately [s]used a controversial number[/s] [b]lied[/b] because they knew that it would be attacked by the Remain side and that would keep the coverage on an area that was a strength for them.

FTFY.

That's aside from the fact that Farage admitted on national TV [i]the day after the referendum[/i] that giving it to the NHS instead was a lie.

That is why it was important to them.

Agreed. Bullshit sticks harder when the heat of attention is directed at it.
How is it countered effectively then? I don't have a ready answer…

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer;

As I said before - there is no them and us. They ARE us.

Cougar, that Byline piece is depressing and concerning.
No doubt some mean every word they have written.
I wonder how many of the keyboard warriors - particularly those who use pseudonyms - really mean what they have written or are just being thick ignorant ****s because they think it makes them look big and important.
Most would be incapable of any rational discussion.
Most are only empowered behind a keyboard or when they're being aggressive as part of a group; one to one they just grunt and truck off because they are inadequate.
Post, delete, think it's forgotten; no it isn't and thanks to Byline for pulling this together.
Enough to make me ashamed of my country.

When you voted for a referendum called by a Conservative government, who did you think would be "in charge" of the UK leaving the EU?

Maybe she just assumed, as I'm sure many did, that they wouldn't make a monumental pig's ear of it.

And yet you are doing the same, what they actually said was they deliberately used a controversial number because they knew that it would be attacked by the Remain side and that would keep the coverage on an area that was a strength for them. If they had put £200 million on the side of the bus, I can't imagine there are many people who would have said only £200 million, oh well in that case I will vote remain. However it would have significantly effected the coverage. That is why it was important to them.

Cost benefit analysis… if you only look at the costs of a deal, you'll end up worse off trying to save money.

Cougar, that Byline piece is depressing and concerning.
No doubt some mean every word they have written.
I wonder how many of the keyboard warriors

I don't doubt for a moment that they're not actually representative of most Leave voters. They're a vocal, extreme fringe. But still. It's telling who you share a bed with, I reckon you'd struggle to compile a 58-page dossier of Remain death threats.