tjagain is spotonagain.
They’ll not get my vote with their current stance, they clearly don’t want my vote and believe they can do without it.
100% my position too.
Starmer is an educated former QC who now has to pretend to be some stroker down the pub who believes Brexit can be made to 'work' somehow. FFS. And everything about it that can be said to be able to 'make work' is effectively reversing bits of the current mingle**** of a settlement we have due to the nobheads' nobhead Boris Bloody Johnson.
It's a balls up, an error, a fail, a disaster. The only way to improve where we are now is to reverse some or all of it. I'd prefer to be told the truth of that. It appears that our morbidly thick* electorate needs it presenting to them as some kind of brilliant diplomacy - fine, but I can't vote for anyone who portrays this shitshow for anything other than what it is.
*ernie - love your work, man, but voting ourselves out of the most successful free trade bloc in history on the basis of a pack of easily refutable lies = stupidity, however you want to slice it up.
. When I Googled “world beating research” the Oxford Covid vaccine that killed a forum member’s partner came up – old vaccine technology and not a word of the RNA Pfizer and Moderna vaccines that really were world beating and innovative (Germany and the US).
sorry but did you really just use the example of a poster on heres wife dying to score a point in a discussion about the EU. If so shame on you.
I believe it to be wrong but I understand why he did it.
You believe its wrong to tell the electorate that Labour will respect their democratic choice?
Lets be clear, no UK politician can stand on a policy of rejoining the EU unless they're also standing on an independence platform - they & the electorate have to understand it's pointless, and just have to get on with the problems of being a 3rd country.
If you want to rejoin (in your lifetime) vote SNP, PC, SF - depending on which country you live in.
Otherwise you've two choices, Tory for staying out and constant bickering (with the EU) or Labour for staying out but trying to build a better relationship (with the EU).
Your vote, your choice.
On the basis you don't gamble more than you can afford to lose, the risk of coming out all rejoin is to lose the election, and get a further emboldened conservative government and a further mismanaged Brexit relationship with the EU.
I do see your argument and absolutely wish it wasn't so, but it's not me you need to convince. It's the redwall/bluewall floating voter in the marginal that holds all the power, what do they need to hear to get their vote. Maybe it's not a true labour vote for a true labour party, as long as it's not the tories.
Defeat - would see the labour party further in turmoil, another 5 years with no opposition because of infighting, that just can't happen. Integrity? - we're backed in a corner and the gloves are off, this is a fight we cannot afford to lose or we are truly ****ed.
You believe its wrong to tell the electorate that Labour will respect their democratic choice?
You know thats not the point. You also know that if the referndum was held now remain would have a huge win. Democracy is a process not a single point in time
I merely want Starmer to be honest and I believe rejoin even in those marginals would be a huge vote winner ( and all the polling shows this). Starmer is so busy chasing tory brexiteer votes he has not realised how much he is losing from the other side. Its going to cost him a majority
would be a huge vote winner ( and all the polling shows this).
It's changing, and some pollsters think it may have flipped over, I'll grant you. But as i've said, 'don't scare the voter' is still the safe (and dishonest, if you like) option.
I wish it were not so, but we cannot afford to lose this time.
His stance is losing him votes and seats tho I am sure. Enough voters will vote green, lib dem or SNP because labour have gone full brexiteer that labour fail to take some seats that otherwiswe they would have done and this is accelerating.
You know thats not the point.
It's exactly the point, you can't have it any other way. One of the reasons that Labour lost the 2019 election was their muddled stance on Brexit
Starmer is so busy chasing tory brexiteer votes
Labour can't win without the votes of folks who voted for Brexit in 2016, or voted for the Tories in 2019.
Its going to cost him a majority
He clearly doesn't think so, and given that Labour just overturned a 20,000 majority in a by-election, and won a Tory seat they've never held since its existed I guess they probably think the advice they're getting about strategy is working for them. Selby voted Leave
revisionist thinking Nickc - the reason they lost that election was the labour rightwingers sabotage and the tory / labour anti SNP pact in Scotland
Labour cannot win either without the pro european votes and he is losing them at a rate of knots
Its deja vu all over again Rodney!
Labour cannot win either without the pro european votes
I'll say it again, Labour just overturned a 20,000 vote majority in a seat they've never won before that a swing of 25 points, in a (relatively strong) leave area. I don't think voters in remain voting areas( largely young urban and city dwellers) are suddenly going to vote for the Tories. For instance: Out of the 26 Manchester seats, just three have a 2nd place at the last election that isn't the Tories or Labour, and just one of those three is a Labour seat. The Lib-Dems just don't have the electoral clout at a GE to put up candidates. Just eight of the 26 are Tories currently and some of those aren't standing next time around anyway.
I just don't think you're right.
None of those are concrete reasons to want the UK back in the EU, Daffy.
Dear god I've seen some nonsense on here but this tops it all. Those things Daffy mentioned are exactly why the EU would welcome us back with open arms*. I cant imagine what else you think would be "concrete". You only have to listen to sensible european politicians across the EU to know they'd take us back.
* yes i know we'd have a much worse deal than we had before and they'd want a long period of very positive sentiment for rejoining
Labour just overturned a 20,000 vote majority in a seat they’ve never won before that a swing of 25 points, in a (relatively strong) leave area.
Although Labour increased their vote (with what looks to be a loan from the libdems) they won because the tories stayed home.
Something which is safe to do during a byelection and sometimes useful to indicate unhappiness.
Its less likely during a GE where people would turn out even if they aint overly fond of the party.
I don’t think voters in remain voting areas( largely young urban and city dwellers) are suddenly going to vote for the Tories.
No but they dont have to turn out to vote for Labour. If we look at Uxbridge they failed to get people to turn out.
Its going to be somewhat biased by Brunel being off but it doesnt look like they did a good job of winning voters across.
I know why Starmer has to pretend to be a nobhead. I just can't vote for someone who does this. My vote, my ****ing choice.
I don’t think voters in remain voting areas( largely young urban and city dwellers) are suddenly going to vote for the Tories.
Of course they are not. They are going to vote for leftish pro european parties - SNP. Lib dem, greens and labour will lose enough votes to them that they will not take many of their target seats
:Lib dems and greens will take very few seats - but will take enough votes off labour that tories retain many seats that a pro europe anti privitisation Labour party would take
its years to go yet and we do keep on debating this. We will see in time but the recent by elections and polling show this clearly. When folk feel they have an alternative that is pro europe and anti privitisation some will vote for them. These are votes labour needs and IMO they are assuming these folk will hold teir nose and vote labour. Well thats not happening IMO
I know why Starmer has to pretend to be a nobhead. I just can’t vote for someone who does this. My vote, my **** choice
I agree on the principle, but if enough people do the same, the law if unintended consequences will bite us all the ass.
I agree on the principle, but if enough people do the same, the law if unintended consequences will bite us all the ass.
And thats something for Starmer to consider isnt it? If he isnt offering anything more than slightly less tory than the tories he shouldnt be surprised if his cunning plan fails.
I'd love Starmer to declare his intention to gradually roll back Brexit but the simple fact is he will be slaughtered in all the right wing press and propaganda channels.
They totally destroyed Corbyn in the public's eyes and might well succeed in doing the same to Starmer.
Nothing can change till the Tories have gone, I'm willing to vote tactically in the GE for whoever is likely to oust them.
Standing on principle is lovely if you want the Tories in power for another 5 years.
I mean, can you honestly imagine another 5 years of this?
No f****** way.
I'll be voting Labour as they are the party most likely to get rid of my local Tory MP in my constituency.
I really don't understand a lot of you. Surely the first step in reversing Brexit is to remove the Tories and show Europe that there's a firm, sensible hand on the controls? The next step is about education, showing why and how we're better off, how it works for us and how that EU return benefits the regions damaged by Brexit. Showing Europe there's a growing sentiment to rejoing, not just in a few regions, but nationwide. SKS/Labour, unlike the LD or the SNP, doesn't have the luxury of only appealing to a certain proportion of the electorate, he has to have broad appeal. He's relying on those who want to return to remember how vocal he was after Brexit and to notice how carefully crated the Labour Brexit message is. If you can't do that, if you need it explained, if you need Labour to shout it from the rooftops to get your vote, then you're dumber than those turkeys who voted for Christmas.
SKS/Labour, unlike the LD or the SNP, doesn’t have the luxury of only appealing to a certain proportion of the electorate, he has to have broad appeal.
Errmmm yes. Thats the point.
New Labour did this, to a degree, offering a range of policies aimed across the board.
Starmer is offering a range of policies aimed at the tories.
then you’re dumber than those turkeys who voted for Christmas.
The problems with this besides it being a fantasy is that if you do buy into it you are buying into supporting politicians lying to get office. So hope you didnt complain about Johnsons lies?
Starmer has very publically become a Brexit apologist who as TJpoints out has renounced the idea of a level of integration that would allow a significant improvement. He was amongst many campaigning for remain before the vote notably:
Prime Minister David Cameron
Chancellor George Osborne
Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond
Home Secretary Theresa May
Business Secretary Sajid Javid
Welsh Secretary Alun Cairns
International Development Secretary Justine Greening
Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt
Communities and Local Government Secretary Greg Clark
Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin
Environment Secretary Elizabeth Truss
Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Oliver Letwin
Secretary of State for Education Nicky Morgan
Secretary of State for Scotland David Mundell
House of Lords Leader Baroness Stowell of Beeston (not in House of Commons)
Secretary of State for Defence Michael Fallon
Secretary of State for Energy Amber RuddSecretary of State for Work and Pensions Stephen Crabb
Paymaster General Matt Hancock*
Chief Secretary to the Treasury Greg Hands*
Chief Whip Mark Harper*
In somewhat more intimate remain company after the vote when Corbyn called for immediate use of art.51 or whatever number it was. And now he's joined most but not all of the above with a policy of now it's done accept it and make the most/worst of it.
If he had wanted to give Britain a realistic chance of rejoining under a Labour gouvernement he would have had to be seen to be properly pro-European and pro-rejoin and fight every law change towards divergance. He hasn't, he's part of the problem and Europeans can see that.
Labour's Brexit message isn't about forever, its for right now, right after this election when we wouldn't have a hope in hell of rejoining Europe anyway. This paves the way. This is the start, this is proof of re-alignment with Europe.
Some weird stuff going on in this thread 😂, have to agree with Daffy's stuff about why we'd be welcomed back, with the addition of the reality that the EU is changing and has changes since we left, with the Russian issue, they have Pro-Russian EU members, EU members assisting Russia and on the other side, countries who want to do more for Ukraine and more against Russia. It'll bubble away for a while, but i think there might be more breakdown within the EU over the next couple of years due to this.
Will we want back in, well first is getting rid of the tory government, next is softening the feelings across the nation, building bridges, etc and that'll take time, more than one term in power for Labour or Labour/Lib Dems. Again, with the Russian issue and other issues around the world, we may see UK/EU agreements that make life a bit more easy for all.
As for the negativity of Daffy's list, i'm scratching my head that folk on here bang on about how easy it'll be for Scotland to get into the EU, for reasons that are way less than on that list.
Brexit but the simple fact is he will be slaughtered in all the right wing press and propaganda channels.
They totally destroyed Corbyn in the public’s eyes
Errm, no, Corbyn didn't take a stance on brexit until it was too late, he even 3 line whipped his MPs into voting FOR brexit.
Turns out he's all for cooperation (socialism) as long as it's on his terms and not including the EU, so not socialist at all, just another authoritarian grifter.
The voting public, it seems, have very short memories.
Where is he lying? Spell it out to me
So he is going ahead with these right wing policies? Its hard to keep up with the apologetics here and how we are supposed to magically read his secret plans.
If you want to rejoin (in your lifetime) vote SNP, PC, SF – depending on which country you live in.
SNP and PC don't want to "rejoin" - they want independent countries to join for the first time. (Bizarrely, this involves enthusiasm for mini-Brexit, where a free trade and movement union with the closest trade partners is broken up in favour of a promise of an union with other, geographically more distant, partners). SF doesn't want to rejoin at all - Ireland is already inside the EU, and SF wants the north of Ireland to be reintegrated with the southern part.
Where is he lying? Spell it out to me – you’ll need a bloody good “alternative” dictionary.
He is lying about making brexit work. Its gaslighting pure and simple
That's not what gaslighting means. Gaslighting is tricking someone to doubt their own sanity by lying about what has already happened. You might think that Starmer is lying when he says "I'll make Brexit work", but it's not gaslighting whatever happens.
yes it is because he is trying to convince us brexit can be made to work when it cannot
Its gaslighting pure and simple
Don't be ridiculous. It's standard politics.
yes it is because he is trying to convince us brexit can be made to work when it cannot
Sort of, that’s the slogan, but the specifics are what’s important and those are spelled out and in each of them it’s about sorting out the crap which is causing grief to both the UK and the EU. Look at the details. Sorting out the NI border, setting policies which work for Britain. Tell me, our biggest potential trading partner is who? Right, the EU, so if we align our policies, that works for Britain, right? We’ve still got control and if we want to change them, we can, but why would we it would be ruinous, just like happened after Brexit, right?
SKS is a lawyer - the devil is in the detail.
It really is not. I have never seen anything like that before in my life. Insisting he can make brexit work we he and us both know it cannot be made to work. Its a whole other level from the usual fake promises frompoliticians
Its a disgusting position that means many of us are unable to vote for labour
I believe in the honesty of SKS, I really do, but I’ll be voting LD as 1.) I’m a card carrying member (and a LD 😂) and 2.) I really want to try and force a coalition and removal of FPTP.
Do you really think he believes in brexit and believes he can make it work and that there is no case for rejoin? all things he claims
It really is not. I have never seen anything like that before in my life. Insisting he can make brexit work we he and us both know it cannot be made to work.Its a whole other level from the usual fake promises frompoliticians
Its a disgusting position that means many of us are unable to vote for labour
You’re a precious little flower, with a very selective memory aren’t you? “A whole other level”. Really? I mean REALLY?
Farage, BoJo, (Brexit) Trump (wall) Clegg (fees) Macron (retirement), Blair (WMD), Sturgeon (once in a generation), this list goes on. All of them have reneged on far greater promises.
Its not the renege on promise - its the fact its an outright lie and he knows it is but he is trying to gaslight us into believing he is going to achieve it
totally differnt thing
IOh - and once in a generation was not from Sturgeon and not official policy
Do you really think he believes in brexit and believes he can make it work and that there is no case for rejoin? all things he claims
SKS has never said he believes in Brexit - you’re putting words in his mouth. What he said was “we need to rebuild trust with the EU and get a better deal for Britain” Making Brexit work doesn’t mean in the same way as the Torys think or want. As both you Edukator and everyone else has said at length, there’s no current case for rejoin. You have to make it work, rebuild trust and THEN rejoin.
Exactly what SKS has said since July last year.
revisionism of the highest order. I am not putting words in his mouth. this is what he said
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62034754
Labour's plan, he said, would focus on "unblocking" the government's Brexit deal by removing barriers to trade with the EU and taking steps to resolve border issues in Northern Ireland.
None of which is possible without raproachment with the EU which he is stating he will not do
anyway - its all going round adn round with entrenched positions. agree to disagree
As with the climate thread TJ - I’ll leave you to your VERY entrenched mentality. Have fun in there.
Daffy - just sometimes you could consider others viewpoints? I know thats a bit rich coming from me but pot kettle black 🙂
revisionism of the highest order. I am not putting words in his mouth. this is what he said
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62034754
Labour’s plan, he said, would focus on “unblocking” the government’s Brexit deal by removing barriers to trade with the EU and taking steps to resolve border issues in Northern Ireland.
None of which is possible without raproachment with the EU which he is stating he will not doanyway – its all going round adn round with entrenched positions. agree to disagree
That's exactly what you want to hear from a politician trying to win votes, moving forwards instead of gazing at the problem for another few years, how the hell could anyone at Labour or any other party promise to rejoin the EU when they get in power and a) keep that promise and b) get a good deal if they do.
We left the EU, it's in the past now, we are someway down the road to managing the effects, and have suffered the worst parts of it so far, to reverse course now would be more money, time and effort down the drain, especially if we're telling the French, Spanish, Italians, etc that we're desperate, we need time to make it more appealing to the EU for us to join so we don't end up getting done over twice!
You want to hear a politician lying and gaslighting and stating things both us and him know is false? OK. He cannot acheive his stated aims without the raproachment he has ruled out
Brexit is not in the past. the most damaging bit is yet to come
