Dickhead roof guy? 🤔
Wake up Starmer! Try some leadership
You cannot negotiate to return to the EU from opposition.
No - but he could be leading and moulding public opinion instead he is way way behind fighting against public opinin and gaslighting and lying about brexit
Yeah - unfortunately plenty of voters are like whatsherchops in the clip who don't like it when "we change our minds all the time". Of course they have no fing idea what that means or what the issues are, but running on a platform of "five more years of mind-changing with me" is not a vote winner.
There is also the real risk that a new Labour government could end up completely preoccupied with negotiating to join the EU and not achieve any of the other important things or get re-elected. It's cute to say "do two things at once" but as we have seen from Brexit and COVID, the state and the legislature have limited bandwidth.
The problem is as that without a proper trading relationship with the EU then everything labour wants to do is much much harder. the other is by focusing so intently on not upsetting a few racists in a few northern constituencies he is going to lose votes and seats in other areas. Scotland particularly which Starmer say he wants to focus on and to gain seats to govern for all of the Uk he is only going to attract votes from unionist brexiteers and thus find it very hard to cut into the SNP vote - despite the disarray of the SNP because he is handing the SNP an easy to use weapon
final point is the UK is moving away from brexit and to rejoin quickly and strongly. He could be leading that move instead he is resisting it.
OK - I know I have laboured this point (sic) so won't go on about it again but I thought it interesting that Guardian article makes th esame point I have been making even if refusing as ever to blame Starmer
but he could be leading and moulding public opinion
Cool, and the right wing press and paid commentators on SM print days and days of stories about how "Starmer will rape your beautiful British Brexit with illegal woke Migrants" and all the other shite that it will do, and Sunak will stand at the despatch box and every question Starmer asks will be answered with "But you want to Steal the hard working families Brexit"
No thanks.
I get at face value what Starmer says you get that impression [that he is for Brexit] but a close reading it clearly interprets as something else, you're not daft, and you understand this, so what else is it that makes you not want to vote for him?
I understand exactly what he is doing. he is running scared of racists in those northern constituencies and he is gaslighting and lying about brexit He is unfortunately fighting against public opinion. I believe this will cost him a majority as labour will lose so many votes to pro EU parties. I also do not accept the magical and wishful thinking from many which is that he is not saying what he means. I am sure he means it with no CU. NO SM no FOM so therefore no significant raproachment with the EU
How come you guys think only the right can lead public opinion?
In todays grauniad
Data showed 58% would vote to re-enter bloc, while more respondents said they trusted the European Commission more than the UK government
I will never vote for a party of brexiteers which is what labour is. simple as that
he is running scared of racists in those northern constituencies and he is gaslighting and lying about brexit
You do know that Labour know who all the racists and idiots are and just say "No thanks I'd rather not have that vote, thanks, give it to the other side" right?
Has anyone else been keeping up with what Gina Miller has been up to?
Has formed a new party and has today come out and said "it's time to start moving towards rejoin"...
I get at face value what Starmer says you get that impression [that he is for Brexit] but a close reading it clearly interprets as something else
Ah yes, the 'he's saying one thing but he actually means something else' argument for Starmer.
You do realise that once you've voted for him and it turns out he meant exactly what he said you will have absolutely no right to complain?
You are the dictionary definition of wishful thinking.
The point is TJ you know that successful politicians say the things that they're audience want to hear. You could listen to Starmer on the EU and decide that he's wholly for Brexit and the thing that you've waited for your whole life for, is safe in his hands. You can also listen to what Starmer is saying and conclude that he's starting the long journey* back to closer integration and perhaps re-admission. That's what wins elections in this country, you may wish it was something different, but t'aint.
* And it will be, I think
Are we all having the same cyclical argument with TJ's delusions?
If Starmer even mentions rejoining, which will have to involve 'UNLIMITED MIGRATION!!!!!' he snatches defeat from the jaws of victory and we've got 5 more years of the Tories
You may want to delude yourself that thats not what would happen but you'd be wrong, because the right wing press would go into hysterical racist, will of the people overdrive and the election would be fought on a single issue which labour would lose
You can also listen to what Starmer is saying and conclude that he’s starting the long journey* back to closer integration and perhaps re-admission.
It need not be a long journey and that is most certainly not what he is saying at all. sorry dude thats wishful thinking
I understand why he has taken that stance but II believe it a huge mistake and he has made it totally clear that he has no interesting in getting any closer to the EU or reversing brexit at all. Thinking otherwise is wishful thinking IMO
You are the dictionary definition of wishful thinking.
Voting is pretty much the definition of wishful thinking. It's what we've got. Overall I think that a Starmer Govt will in all likelihood be better for the folks who really need Govt to do better by them. That's my entire wish fulfilment dreams come true.
So Binners - only the right can influence public opinion? Even with both labour and the tories being enthusiastic brexiteers public opinion is moving away from brexit rapidly
I strongly believe and the polling and local elections show that this is going to cost Starmer a majority. He is going against public opinion. 58% want to rejoin - how much more could he add to that pushing at an open door rather than trying to hold it closed
Its Starmer and his supporters that are delusional old chap 🙂
and that is most certainly not what he is saying at all
The Guardian article that you triumphantly linked to this morning is a long winded version of what I just said. You've admitted that you understand that he's just being a politician by appealing to both sides, why then, keep up this monotone delusion?
Overall I think that a Starmer Govt will in all likelihood be better for the folks who really need Govt to do better by them. That’s my entire wish fulfilment dreams come true.
Better than the Tories? Sure, why not. Difficult to be much worse.
Very much better? Not a chance. Tory-lite at best.
And all you're doing by voting Labour is continuing the cycle. You are voting not just to shaft people for the next 5 years but you're voting to shaft people for the next 50 years.
Vote Labour if it means that much to you, but don't try to pretend it's going to make one bit of difference in the long run. And probably not much difference in the short term either.
Because he is NOT appealing to both sides. Sure some folk may want to believe he is but he has made it 100% clear No CU, no SM no FOM thus no rapproachment with the EU thus making any recovery much harder
Its not a monotone delusion - its refusing to be taken in and refusing to engage in wishful thinking. His position is clear
I understand why he is doing it but I am certain its wrong
So Binners – only the right can influence public opinion?
Who owns most of the press?
Is starmer going to run trips to the Titanic but there won't be fatalities because he will ask the sea to be nice to the submarine.
but don’t try to pretend it’s going to make one bit of difference in the long run.
Where have I said that I think it will? Labour Govts are historically generally better at the sorts of social policies that, for the folks that need it to be; broadly speaking make life more tolerable. That's my political philosophy in a sentence. I long ago gave up up any hope that our politicians could manage better than that. Revolution (see Brexit) mostly doesn't make things better.
I strongly believe and the polling and local elections show that this is going to cost Starmer a majority
In that case, can I propose our usual pastry-based wager? 😃
I understand why he is doing it but I am certain its wrong
Oh OK, so if it's not your perfect Socialist European model, then reject it out of hand? If Labour isn't the perfect solution to your particular issues, then it's beyond the Pale?
I will buy you a slap up Greggs supper if by the end of Labour's next term that we don't have closer economic ties to the EU.
Labour Govts are historically generally better at the sorts of social policies that, for the folks that need it to be; broadly speaking make life more tolerable. That’s my political philosophy in a sentence.
Your philosophy is make things marginally less shit?
Would voting reform be considered too revolutionary for your philosophy?
Many of the problems we've experienced this century can be attributed to the UK's voting system which encourages parties to pander to a tiny percentage of the population.
Sorry, but my philosophy is to make things better in a way that is going to result in lasting change.
You haven't posted the victory spoils from the last one yet 🙂
for sure. I think 10 -20 seats short of a majority 'cos the anti tory vote in remain areas will be split and that his brexiteer stance will be used as a weapon. Polls are indicating this right now and closing
I will buy you a slap up Greggs supper if by the end of Labour’s next term that we don’t have closer economic ties to the EU.
Hmm - needs a bit of definition - a few minor things won't do but yes in principle. I'm gonna be so fat 🙂
and yes - brexit is an absolute red line for me. I cannot ever vote for a brexiteer party. fortunately the tories have no chance in my seat. In a tory / labour marginal that might be tested as I normal vote tactically anti tory
In that case, can I propose our usual pastry-based wager? 😃
Labour are relying on keeping the red wall racists onside and appealing to disillusioned SNP voters to get a majority (not me speculating, that's what they've said).
This is two groups of voters who have diametrically opposed views when it comes to Europe.
Starmer has decided to ignore Scotland (despite focusing on it, apparently) and simply pander to the red-wall racists.
It takes a particular kind of arrogance to assume this is going to result in significant gains in Scotland.
Would voting reform be considered too revolutionary for your philosophy?
I don't think either of the two parties that are fighting for this next election are interested in voting reform. Voting reform is not at the top of my political wish list when there are folks on or below the breadline, and we need to sort out more pressing issues. And while I do believe that govts can do more than one thing at a time, without a massive majority and several terms in office, most have ****ed it up when presented with the opportunity.
I don't think there's an appetite for voting reform in the country, beyond nerdy political threads like this one, and given the smug half assed condensation the last opportunity for referendum was handed down, I doubt they'd be another coming anytime soon.
Strong appetite for voting reform in Scotland - because we have seen it works Voting reform would mean never having a tory government again more than likely and certainlay not a far right one like we have now. It would mean centrerist coalitions and the majority in the UK are leftish
along with reversing brexit its a key thing to make the UK a functioning 21st century social democracy
It takes a particular kind of arrogance to assume this is going to result in significant gains in Scotland.
To make gains in Scotland all you have to do is rely on the cops arresting your opponents every now and again to keep reminding the public that there's "something something shifty" going on The SNP will suffer becasue of it, I'm not sure that arrogance has anything to do with politic realities.
Looking forward to the future Question Time where they go to a more broadminded city location and speak to an audience or remainers/ rejoiners who in contrast may be made up of predominately under 50's about their opinions on Brexit, that is going to happen isn't it? Isn't it? Baring the odd one or two the leaver audience fulfilled the brief from the opening shot to the last. Not many youthful faces there...
To make gains in Scotland all you have to do is rely on the cops arresting your opponents every now and again to keep reminding the public that there’s “something something shifty” going on The SNP will suffer becasue of it, I’m not sure that arrogance has anything to do with politic realities.
I love the fact that you have appointed yourself the arbitrator of 'political realities'.
Did you make yourself a hat?
Voting reform is not at the top of my political wish list when there are folks on or below the breadline, and we need to sort out more pressing issues.
You do realise that until the two major parties stop pandering to a tiny minority of the population we are always going to have far too many people below the breadline?
It would mean centrerist coalitions
This study will tell you that overall collation govts do worse than single executive govts at keeping their election promises, collation govts who's policies are closely aligned do better, but still worse than single executives at keeping election pledges.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/26379508
This study will tell you that overall collation govts do worse than single executive govts at keeping their election promises, collation govts who’s policies are closely aligned do better, but still worse than single executives at keeping election pledges.
Of course they do. That's the point.
If you have a minority of the population imposing it's views on the majority that's not really a price worth paying in the name of 'getting things done' or 'keeping election manifesto pledges'.
matt_outandaboutFull Member
This new party?
https://www.trueandfairparty.uk/Yes, that one, @matt_outandabout.
My friend is running as a candidate, and I quite like a lot of what they're saying, although I worry that they'll take some of the labour vote here and that's the only party that could possibly challenge the tories in this constituency...
Voting reform is not at the top of my political wish list when there are folks on or below the breadline
Voting reform is the thing that could get people off the breadline.
My position - a bit repetitive, but hey, seven years today and the same basic questions are being asked i.e. Name one tangible benefit of Brexit to the general population...
Tories have to own Brexit now. They turned themselves into a populist-nationalist Brexit Party - courting the votes of the hard of thinking with the connivance of their mates.
Labour have to be seen to want to make Brexit work. Or at least that is what Starmer's advisers are telling him. He has to pretend to believe a totally idiotic policy can be made to work. He's a clever bloke - it follows that he cannot personally believe this to be true. The problem is that if he reopens the debate fully he will lose the racist moron vote overnight. His strategists are telling him the racist moron vote is more important than the floating vote between LibDem/Green and Labour.
That is fine. Labour don't think they need my vote. They won't be getting it for one main reason. I truly hate the way Brexit has corrupted political discourse in this country. To lead an intelligent, educated former QC to have to pretend that an idiotic act is somehow OK...? So, I refuse to vote for anyone who won't call Brexit out for what it is - namely a nation-level screw up.
But here's the kicker. If Starmer's strategists are correct, my vote is not required for a Labour majority, right? So, I will vote Libdem safe in the knowledge that it still means a Labour majority and I have not surrendered my principles. That is a kind of win-win.
Hope those Starmer Strategists are right...
EDIT: Or I could vote for Gina Miller's party.
My friend is running as a candidate, and I quite like a lot of what they’re saying, although I worry that they’ll take some of the labour vote here and that’s the only party that could possibly challenge the tories in this constituency…
It depends what you want your vote to do.
A lot of people will tell you a vote for anyone other than Labour is a wasted vote. That takes a very narrow and quite frankly childish view where the most important thing is that the right team wins.
If you and enough voters voted for a party that represents what you want to see happen, Labour will take notice.
Even if the party you vote for never wins a seat it can still massively affect the country if it forces the mainstream parties to chase your vote by adopting the policies you want to see enacted.
Given just how Tory-lite this incarnation of Labour is, I would say a vote for Labour is the real wasted vote in this scenario.
Someone had to try the reverse UKIP thing, hadn't predicted it would be Miller. Doomed to failure though, UKIP may have presented itself successfully as a grass roots organisation, but ultimately without right wing newspaper support and the resulting TV media amplification (such as QT) it would have withered on the vine. There is no corresponding media support or route for Miller's party. She'll get the occasional radio and TV panel slot, but nothing comparable to what Farage achieved when it mattered most for his party.
If you and enough voters voted for a party that represents what you want to see happen, Labour will take notice.
What you might be hoping is that enough other people will hold their noses and vote to get the Tories out, while you get the warm glow of voting for an option that better matches your aims. Feels nice. Not a risk I'll be taking (again) in my seat... I did that when Brown and Miliband led Labour... and so part of "all this" mess, including Brexit, is my fault. The warm glow of voting for third placed parties to make my policy point is now stone cold dead.
If we had PR for UK wide elections it would all be different. Of course. But we don't.
Bruce, how do you plan to get voter reform implemented without having voter reform in place already to ensure that the vote for voter reform comes out in favour of voter reform?
"'scuse me government, would you mind passing this legeslation that means you wont be in government much in future...."
" Sure, yeah. After all we've always had the needs of the populace at the forefront of our policies...."
Bruce, how do you plan to get voter reform implemented without having voter reform in place already to ensure that the vote for voter reform comes out in favour of voter reform?
UKIP got us out of the EU without ever winning a seat.
UKIP got us out of the EU without ever winning a seat.
UKIP mobilised idiocy and prejudice. A pro-rejoin party can't do that.
UKIP mobilised idiocy and prejudice. A pro-rejoin party can’t do that.
UKIP stole Tory votes and forced them to chase them by moving further and further right (which caused Labour to move further and further right).
If a pro-rejoin pro-voting reform party starts stealing Labour votes Labour will chase after them.
