Or we could accept that many of the issue the UK faces cannot be solved without rejoin? hence rejoin is the top priority?
given what Starmer has said there is no significant steps that can be taken and the EU has also ruled out any renegotiation of the exit deal. thats the problem with his " make brexit work" - its impossible
That's a logical fallacy, though, TJ. EU re-entry is not THE top priority just because it touches a lot of other stuff. Housing, interest rates, education, healthcare, drugs, fraud - all areas with zero or little EU involvement, all massive concerns.
As an aside, there isn't really "rejoining" or "re-entry" to the EU. It is wildly unlikely that the EU would accept the UK back on its former terms. There is really only "joining for a second time".
I thought it was “isle of Wights” which is rubbish as I have no idea its size.
Maybe a Jersey (110 sq km, 45⅞ yokes) would be a suitably Anglo-continental unit?
Or we could accept that many of the issue the UK faces cannot be solved without rejoin?
The people who knew that it was madness to leave in 2016, know that now. Nothings changed.
The people who believed Boris and Farages 'Project Fear bollocks have still largely got their fingers in their ears going LA-LA-LA-I'M NOT LISTENING!!!
In the grand scheme of things its amazing how little the polling has changed, despite all the evidence of what utter folly this whole farce has been
I'm sure that on a personal level, every politician who's been in Westminster since 2016, bar the proper Berxit headbangers, is absolutely sick to the back teeth with it all, and have absolutely zero appetite for reopening the whole can of worms all over again, so that it once again becomes all-consuming and nothing else gets done
Or we could accept that many of the issue the UK faces cannot be solved without rejoin?
I dunno. There's money in the UK economy, it just needs redistributing and spending on the right things.
Leaving the EU took several years and took up a lot of the government’s and parliament’s time, which distracted both from many other issues that required attention. I have no doubt that rejoining would do the same.
Hmm... Since brexit 'got done', we've had nothing but drama and soap opera from parliament...
Very little governing actualy seems to be taking place. You know, That thing they get paid hefty amounts of money to do.
Brexit gives us a continuing and compounding economic hit. thats why rejoin needs to be a top priority because without rejoin attempting to do anything about these other issues is doing it with one hand tied behind our backs
Ignoring it is not going to work - brexit will remain an all consuming political issue until we are at least back in the CU and SM and the pro EU parties will continue to keep it in the forefront
We haven't even finished leaving yet - lots of damaging stuff still to be implemented like customs controls on incoming goods
Every day we are out more damage is done and its political cowardice to refuse to see this
Its not just the brexit ultras with their fingers in their ears - its most of both tory and labour
Every day we are out more damage is done and its political cowardice to refuse to see this
Seeing it is one thing (most people with anything between their ears can see that), rectifying the whole thing is another thing altogether
But we all know that your view is completely binary about this (dear god, you've told us enough times!) and everyone who doesn't 100% agree with your approach is immediately labelled by you as 'an enthusiastic Brexiteer'
The labour party, or whatever coalition gets in once this shower are booted out have got 14 years of decay, neglect, corruption and incompetence to try and deal with , of which Brexit is just one (admittedly large) part. They're going to have a lot to do, a limited timescale in which to do it, and they've probably factored in that probably the best approach to that would not be to immediately alienate half the population and start a re-run of the whole national fissure all over again
They also have to make a big impact in the 5 years they get.
So ignore the biggest thing that they can do to improve the economy and thus lives of the people of the UK? and BTW Binners - labour have become enthusiastic brexiteers - have you not listened to what they say on it? "make brexit work" my arse
Starmer is refusing any significant rapproachment with the EU
The Labour Party is not ignoring the cosmic disaster of Brexit. To say so is just making stuff up.
So ignore the biggest thing that they can do to improve the economy and thus lives of the people of the UK?
Cor, say that on the Kier Starmer thread and you're gonna get hoofed in the slats by crypto-monetarists who will accuse you of being a Tory stooge!
and BTW Binners – labour have become enthusiastic brexiteers
No, they haven't
And on that note I'm out, because on this matter, much as I love you, its quite like...
The Labour Party is not ignoring the cosmic disaster of Brexit. To say so is just making stuff up.
how do you work that out? I have not heard them calling out the disaster it has been and I have not heard them calling for anything significant in the way of rapprochement with the EU
No to CU, SM, FOM "make brexit work" is being enthusiastic brexiteers - remember we were told that even if we voted leave we would still be in the CU /SM
Instead we have Starmer over and over again refusing to do anything significant to move towards the EU and gaslighting the UK public
I’m just picturing the Tories rescuing themselves after a campaign where the main slogan was “KEEP Brexit Done.”
we were told that even if we voted leave we would still be in the CU /SM
Who said that? It was bollocks then and it's bollocks now.
Every day we are out more damage is done and its political cowardice to refuse to see this
I don't think that Labour aren't refusing to see it, just becasue they're not saying it in public doesn't mean jack. In fact I'm pretty sure they entirely understand it. It's also perfectly understandable for anyone to hold both that "Brexit is shit" and "We're going to have to live with it for the time being" as truths in their heads at the same time. Especially if you want to last more than one term and talk about nothing else but doing the same shit we've all just been through in reverse. If I was Starmer I'd not want this to define the next 5 years either. And even if the polls say that folks are increasingly unhappy with it, that doesn't mean they'll vote for another referendum, or that that'll vote to re-join in another referendum, or that they'll vote for Labour to hold a referendum.
You know full well why Labour aren't riding Dobbin the Re-joining Wonder-horse all the way to the door of No10, you're not daft.
we were told that even if we voted leave we would still be in the CU /SM
Yeah, but that was always 'cakist' bollocks, only believed by the gullible and hard-of-thinking (who apparently account for 52% of those that voted)
The rules of EU membership are simple, clear, unambiguous and non-negotiable
If you want to be part of the single market then that includes freedom of movement. No cherrypicking. You can't have one without the other. Them's the rules
Considering the amount of people in this country who completely lose their shit over a hundred people in a dinghy on a beach in Kent, you can forget rejoining the SM.
If Starmer even mentioned it in passing, every right wing tabloid would soil themselves in horrified indignant outrage and have headlines screaming LABOUR TO WELCOME IN UNLIMITED MASS IMMIGRATION!!!, the Tory's would weaponise that and all the thicko's, racists and half-wits would vote the Tory's back in.
You can delude yourself that that wouldn't be the case, but you'd be wrong
Oh I am sure it would be the case. doesn't change the fact its political cowardice from Starmer and I believe being principled and truthful on this would overall be a vote winner. You know - show some leadership and lead public opinion. Imagine the effect onpublic opinion to have the leader of labour doing this - its already moved hugely away from brexit while Starmer supports brexit.
He is being fundamentally dishonest
It’s also perfectly understandable for anyone to hold both that “Brexit is shit” and “We’re going to have to live with it for the time being”
But thats not Starmers position is it?
Its not what he's saying in public, no. But what he has said in public is up for interpretation. What he thinks or says in private, I've no idea, but I don't believe he thinks Brexit is a Wonder horse.
You know – show some leadership and lead public opinion.
I don't think he has to frankly, the public aren't stupid either, they can work it out for themselves, but I don't think the public want another 5-7 years of parliament arguing about it either. It's been shit, and nothing has got done becasue of it. I don't think the public are ready for the political bun fighting that re-join would provoke, no one has the appetite for it, and I'm pretty sure that not enough folks would vote for it (yet). I think Labour have also made that calculation. The EU would only have us back if there's an overwhelming majority supporting it, and it's the resolved position of both major parties to re-join. That will happen, but until it does, suck it up.
NO Molgrips – I will argue my corner and listen to the counter arguments
Some of them, anyway. 😉
Look, in the local elections, people voted for NOT Conservative and then on issues and councillors, little of national politics was considered beyond headlines. Many people do not like SKS and so voted for Green or LD rather than Labour or Conservative. These, more than Brexit were the issues. I know this as I went door to door with the LD and this was what I heard from real people, not polls or the internet.
WRT national politics, and I'm stating this for the second time today, Brexit is not the issue, it's not even in the top 3. Money/economy/costofliving is #1. Health and Social care is #2. Governance is #3. People just want to see government working for them - this actually covers 1, 2 and 3. I'd honestly place climate change above Brexit at the moment, but maybe that's observer bias from my direct interactions with people on the doorstep.
Migration was still in the top ten, as was Brexit, but migration was mixed between those that saw it as bad and those that found they were no longer able to find skilled help to do things and thus saw the lack of it as bad. Building, gardening, handyman things they used to be able to get done, they no longer can or it takes months to find someone.
Imagine the effect onpublic opinion to have the leader of labour doing this
We've already covered this. Just to recap...
If Starmer even mentioned it in passing, every right wing tabloid would soil themselves in horrified indignant outrage and have headlines screaming LABOUR TO WELCOME IN UNLIMITED MASS IMMIGRATION!!!, the Tory’s would weaponise that and all the thicko’s, racists and half-wits would vote the Tory’s back in.
So we'd have another 5 years of the Tory's (which would make rejoining ever happening even less likely), but that would be fine because he lost heroically and honestly and thats what matters
Imagine the effect onpublic opinion to have the leader of labour doing this
I’m sure it’s been posted before but wouldn’t rejoining require adopting the Euro?
I doubt you’d get that through in my lifetime.
Which I think is the new game,natural wastage of the true believers(of Brexit) 🙂
Why waste time when time wastes them, go in then with rejoin when the numbers are more in your favour.
So ignore the biggest thing that they can do to improve the economy and thus lives of the people of the UK?
It's not the biggest thing. It's not like if we went back tomorrow food bank usage would disappear, is it?
The UK has a string of problems caused by shit government since 2010, this is only one.
I’m sure it’s been posted before but wouldn’t rejoining require adopting the Euro?
I doubt you’d get that through in my lifetime.
No, it wouldn't.
Although it would be worth doing not for any economic reason, but just to ram home the point that Brexit is a cesspit of failure.
yes but the year on year compounding economic hit impoverishes the UK. Brexit increases inflation, has wrecked our export economy and decreased growth.
Hence rejoin is the keystone to get the better economic situation needed to solve the other issues. Not insoluble without rejoin but much harder
Can I make a suggestion Uncle Jezza?
You might want to pop over and take this particular argument to the absolute nutters good people on this thread. You'll fit right in....
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😉
I think one of the issues here is living in Scotland that is much more pro EU and has political leaders that call out brexit as the disaster it is alters the view. In England ( dunno about wales) you do not have political leaders doing this. In Scotland we have pro EU parties to vote for
I know a bunch of folk who were all ( like me) impressed with Starmer at the beginning and thinking of voting labour. Due to his brexiteer stance all have changed their mind. I will not vote for a party that supports Brexit. thats a red line for me
Anyway - round and round we go. I should have continued to keep out of it
I believe being principled and truthful on this would overall be a vote winner.
The polar opposite was true back in 2016 when that accursed referendum happened - which is how we got into this mess in the first place.
Look, if Starmer's advisors are telling him that he has to pretend to be thick by keeping up the pretence that Brexit can be made to work, then fine. If their strategy and command of the numbers is on point, then great.
They've lost my vote - I can't vote for someone of Starmer's intellect and experience pretending to be a dunce. But, according to whoever is advising Starmer, my vote doesn’t matter anyway. So I can vote with a clear conscience and still get rid of the Tories. 👍
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is politics. 🤷♂️
Again - Fix the ship before setting sail. Labour need to get elected first, then they can change course.
Reversing Brexit isn't going to get them into power, or it will, but with less majority than they need to affect change.
If I read Labour's "Make Brexit Work" 5 step statement, it's very much pro-European:
- Sort on NI - This can be sorted quickly by alignment with EU rules, even over time.
- Remove unnecessary trade barriers - the easiest and best way to do this is to align with Europe, which will further the cause for rejoining later as it'll be almost seamless.
- Align qualifications and funding mechanisms for industry and research - again, alignment.
- Strengthen co-operation with our allies to provide security...so alignment.
- Regulation, Investment and funding. Use our ability outside of the EU to change regulation to suit British needs...this doesn't say that the needs of Britain are different to those of Europe...If they're not, our regulation could again align to provide access to European goods on better terms, driving down costs and enabling access. I sense alignment.
Literally nothing in there is actually about Brexit, it's about making the UK work better. All of these things could be sold as making Brexit work whilst smoothing the path for rejoining. In 5 years, if the economy is working they can hail the plan, the trade, the growth, the contentment and say "look, you're practically European, what was all this Brexit bollocks about?"
Again - you cannot fix the ship properly without reversing brexit. Its the key thing. The continuing and compounding economic hit from brexit makes it harder
None of those 5 things will make any significant differnce
I cannot vote for a party that supports brexit - nor will many others. Its a red line
Then you're a fool as you're reading the words, not the meaning and will likely end up with a poorer lot as a result.
Blind faith to an ideal without acknowledgement of the practicalities paints you with the same brush as those you abhor - Brexiteers.
Or your the fool as you are reading into them things that are not there? 😉
How on earth can they compensate for the huge hit to exports? to the loss of financial services? Only rejoining the CU and SM can get rid of trade barriers - and also the EU have made it clear the withdrawal agreement is not going to be renegotiated
Wishful thinking is no substitute for concrete action
Daffy
Full MemberMy last information from April 2023 said that fewer than 1 in 5 classed Brexit/Rejoin as an election deciding issue. It may be costing him some votes, but I’d wager it’s not a lot.
It's not so simple though. Question is, how many of the 1/5 are brexit supporters that might vote Tory or Labour, with them both taking a similar brexit stance. And how many of the anti-brexit people are pushed away? On average- and this is very crude- brexiteers are still more likely to be tories and the more intense you are about it, the more likely. A tory brexiteer won't become a Labour brexiteer just because Labour are brexiteers or vice versa. Meanwhile a naturally Labour returner, or even pissed off remainer, could definitely be put off, and move to another party or just won't vote. So it's entirely possible that Labour and the Tories could take identical brexit stances and that the Tories are the winners from that.
I don't know how it breaks- but I bet it's not as simple as it looks. I'll be looking very carefully at the electoral maths close to the election but man, I really hope I don't have to think about tactically voting Labour. I hope I'd be pragmatic and do it but I really, really don't want to. And I'm not a beautiful and unique snowflake or especially dogmatic so if that's where I am, I guarantee there are people who're raging about brexit and now raging at Labour who will vote SNP or Lib Dem or Green or Plaid or just not vote.
I think basically there's a huge amount of this that is complicated but that people are pretending is simple. On all levels up to and including party leaders. I don't think anyone that thinks it's not, should be making decisions with any more political impact than how they personally vote, but that's by the by.
jamesoz
Full MemberI’m sure it’s been posted before but wouldn’t rejoining require adopting the Euro?
Nope, it's a classic anti-EU myth but also a classic EU fudge. You're required to commit to joining the euro and... that's it. There's no mechanism to force you or even encourage you. And in practice, it's extremely simple to just make sure you don't meet the criteria and not be allowed to join the euro, while pretending you want to. That was the traditional approach, but in practice more recently the EU have just said "meh, don't do it if you don't want to" and that it's an individual nation's choice, just to accept the actual reality
I'm not very convinced that the UK would meet the euro criteria now tbf. Brucewee was a bit rude about it but he's right that this is a scottish indyref unsinkable rubber duck so it's an argument we've seen played out for years, we've been told endlessly that Scotland would have to take the euro. In practice, iScotland wouldn't be allowed to, not for a while. And if the independence movement ever says "Yeah, our plan now is to take the euro" then everyone that used to say we'd have to, would instantly pivot to saying that we wouldn't be allowed to. The same I'm sure would apply to the UK rejoining.
If full-bore EU re-entryism is so popular, why did it crater the Lib Dems and why aren’t the Lib Dems popular again?
I would never vote for them ever again after the student finance debacle. That has sunk them for all time with a lot of the electorate just as they were starting to be credible.
It also starkly illustrates the short-termism of modern politicians.
SKS originally spoke passionately about remain and rejoin/do-over. It got him nowhere other than Labour Leader. The polls clearly show that Rejoin/Brexit is NOT a vote winning issue, so if you're primary objective is to secretly rejoin the EU, but first you have to get elected and to do that you have to NOT alienate a large (30% block) of Brexiteers, what must you do? Walk like a duck, quack like a duck, but not wholly transform into a duck.
If you want to go back to the EU - Labour in majority (either wholly or in coalition) is your only chance of doing so. You can run the risk of voting for minorities and forcing the issue through them, or you can get behind Labour to get the tories out with a large majority and start fixing the bloody ship.
Yours, an active Liberal Democrat.
Daffy - don't forget that I live in Scotland so have far more choice than labour or tory to vote for and the tories have zero chance in my seat. My seat will be an anti tory seat no matter what. whatever I vote has no bearing on a labour government apart from if I vote SNP or green and as is highly likely the SNP win my seat will be represented by a pro europe party that does not gaslight over europe.
Labour need to get elected first, then they can change course.
Labour will write a manifesto, and if elected, that will shape their decisions over the duration of their reign.
If their manifesto allows for a substantial improvement of the brexit disaster, I might well vote for them. But based on what they have said, I think this is highly unlikely.
If you think Labour will get elected on a pro-hard-brexit manifesto, and then immediately say "ha ha fooled you all, we're going to rejoin the SM+CU" then I'm afraid you are utterly delusional.
The polls clearly show that Rejoin/Brexit is NOT a vote winning issue
I disagree strongly as do many pundits. That is just your opinion not a fact as is my position
Once again - I think living in Scotland with a huge pro EU majority and Plenty of Pro EU parties to vote for gives a very differnt perspective
Up here labours EU stance is a clear vote loser
I would never vote for them ever again after the student finance debacle. That has sunk them for all time with a lot of the electorate just as they were starting to be credible.
It also starkly illustrates the short-termism of modern politicians.
This shit again. Yes they gave up a lot, but have you looked what else they accomplished as a brake on Tory policies in those years? Had LD not conceded this issue, you'd have lost a lot more and the Tories would've still rammed it through in a subsequent, non-coalition government. Yes, it sucks, but had we got another government shortly, it might've been overturned. But headline readers hung the LD for it without ever really understanding the whole truth. Read up on it. Minimum wage, personal tax threshold, healthcare, benefits, environmental incentives.
In who's interest was it that headlines flamed the LD? Was it perhaps the party which then won an outright majority on their fall from grace?
I disagree strongly as do many pundits. That is just your opinion not a fact as is my position
Yours is an opinion, mine is not, it's fact and can be shown through several polls, surveys, etc.
It's also borne out by what I see/hear when I speak to people when campaigning for the LD. What's your supporting evidence?
Once again – I think living in Scotland with a huge pro EU majority and Plenty of Pro EU parties to vote for gives a very differnt perspective
LOL - I live in Bath and work in Bristol. 57% Remain and 62% Remain respectively. I went door to door in 2016, I was welcomed, harassed, spat on, shouted at and threatened while campaigning for Remain. What did you do?
What're you doing NOW? You're retired, yes? Lots of free time? USE IT!
I have to go now, it's finally home time. 🙂
Its still an opinion Daffy not a fact. Looking at the polling and the local election results I see Starmers brexiteer stance losing him significant votes
In Scotland 70% want to rejoin.
Yes they gave up a lot, but have you looked what else they accomplished as a brake on Tory policies in those years?
If they hadn't supported them the tory government would have fallen - they acheived less than nothing. they supported a vile tory government and did not act as a brake at all. They gave away all their power by stating they were there for the long run and would not collapse the government
Oh - and as for what I am doing with my time - I am campaigning for assisted dying - an non party political issue. Its exhausting.
I do not need to campaign for rejoin. Its the settled will of the scottish people. No minds to change here
from your link
"Overall, the electorate are split relatively evenly across these categories, with 37% saying they would be most likely to support a party in favour or joining the EU, 28% a party that is against joining and 36% saying they would be most likely to vote for a party that prioritises other issues."
Hardly a ringing endorsement of Starmers position
Looking at the polling and the local election results I see Starmers brexiteer stance losing him significant votes
with those lost votes translating into 500 gained seats..... hmmm. Sorry, I know it's boring and I said I wasn't bothering any more but that ^ is just wrong. Even if it's your opinion, it's demonstrably wrong.
In Scotland more than 70% want to rejoin
Really? Evidence?
