Thats more of a diversification / expanding of the job market issue though not a Buy Brittish
They're linked though, at least at bike manufacturing level (which I appreciate is a drop in the jobs market). Taiwan has a great manufacturing infrastructure based on export business but the UK can't do that to the same extent based on relative wages and costs. Though a local builder can export duty-free to the EU many will be relying on business in the UK for the majority of sales. For the cost of an S-Works or Project One you could have a very nice UK made custom frame - different product in some ways and both brands employ people in the UK but one supports a small UK manufacturing industry - that's the part of backing British I feel most strongly about, for no real reason above seeing it as a valued skill, a craft, something more valuable in a way than mass manufacturing. Subjective yes.. but sat here in front of a PC all week I'd rather be in a workshop more often..
In general, people are not prepaired to pay for UK skilled workers.
Unf not, I would but that's because of all this ^ plus I tend to keep bikes a long time rather than turn them over every 2-3 years so the added cost isn't as much of an influence. I think that's how many UK bike buyers would see it and it means the bikes that are made over here are at a certain quality level and often made to be the right product rather than a wider range planning tick. A lot of that applies to brands doing good stuff in the same way in other countries though, it's not a UK-only thing oc. UK made just makes buying and service points feel closer to home. Still, I look at Ioklin bikes too often and would be happy with a Cotic or Starling made in the EU.
@easily - thanks. Nice to know. If I ever get into bother for time online in work hours I may call you as a witness in defence, ha.
One thing I'll say is that Starling have always seemed very reasonably priced for a beautiful UK made, high-quality steel FS frame.
Mine was one of the best-finished frames I've owned.
Current frame price without shock is £1,850. Competitive with some stunningly average (probably heavier) aluminium frames.
No I won’t I’ll back the value for money
I’m not buying cheap or buying twice if I buy from a brand that makes their stuff in Taiwan or china I’m already getting a world class product ,Anyone that thinks the Taiwanese are not masters if their craft is a fool
If you want high employment per bike then you're looking at high prices to pay for that and in this economic climate that isnt sustanable in big numbers.
My point was that we should look at employment in the uk per sale. To balance the idea that Merida employe more people than Cotic. It’s not more people employed per sale it’s more uk people employed per sale. At that point i wasn’t arguing about whether we did or shouldn’t be buying British. Just how we should make the comparison.
I’m not in the market for a Brompton but they seem to be a company that provides good employment and training in the uk. If i could support that with a purchase i would
I own 3 pairs of Hope Hubs. I like the fact that I’m supporting jobs in the uk. Of course there still has to be quality and value but I’m happy that I’m getting that too.
I was surprised to see "flag shagging" accusations on the thread. Buying locally made stuff is just common sense. You support the economy you live in and improve the country's balance of payments, that benefits you.
On topic We've got a couple of Bromptons, a Dawes tandem from when they were still hand-brazed in Tyseley, a made to measure tandem made in the Black Country and a Pashley unicycle.
Most of my other bikes are French because that's my other nationality, I've got two flags to shag if you see it that way, however the French content is low to non-existant in the more recent bikes; frames from Taiwan etc.
This usually means spending more, 50% more doesn't worry me and even double I'll put up with, but the quality has to be there, I'm not paying more for something shoddy or unsuitable just because it's made locally.
So I have preferences:
1/ Very local, Kiwami is a couple of friends so I can watch my kit being cut out and sewn up from European materials.
2/ French or British and properly so
3/ neighbouring countries such as Spain Italy and Germany
4/ Europe
5/ European brands made abroad in friendly countries
6/ Friendly countries from around the world so places like Japan, Canada, parts of North Africa...
7/ the countries I boycott within reason
Same goes for everything I buy: car, hob, washing machine, bed, matress, sink, taps (three times the price for Portugese rather than chinese recently, I winced even if they're a thing of beauty), clothes, furniture, cutlery (Thiers), plates (Denby), glasses (Duralex), tomatoes... .
I'd rather contribute to my local economy than contribute to its demise.
The problem is that all the British brands mentioned are a bit “niche”. If that’s your sort of thing then great. However with all of them you’re compromising on features, the two that jump immediately to mind being in frame storage and adjustable geometry. And that’s before you get into choice of frame material. The main advantage of steel is that it’s easier for small manufacturers to work with. And not much else, unless you’re needing a world touring bike that can be welded anywhere. Titanium lugged carbon is a spendy way to customise a frame. Again, great if that’s what you really want, but it’s a niche market.
The big manufacturers make good all round bikes that the smaller ones struggle to compete with, which is why they cater to niche markets. But if you’re not in the niche that they’re aimed at, in most cases you’re better off with one of the big names. I know I am anyway.
However with all of them you’re compromising on features, the two that jump immediately to mind being in frame storage and adjustable geometry
Not sure I'd agree. For sure the biggest brands lead the feature/gimmick stakes if that's what you're after. A Starling Murmur is more adjustable then most FS bikes - buy a 135mm bike, can use it as a 120mm or 160mm. Big brands would rather sell you 3 different bikes...
I'd say they're different products for a different buyer type and that's fine, all good.
The main advantage of steel is that it’s easier for small manufacturers to work with.
It's an advantage but there are UK and US custom/batch builders working in aluminium too. Brazing is easier to pick up than TIG welding but it's not like there's no skilled TIG welders about who are into bikes and could turn a hand to it - plenty of Ti builders about. Alu is just lower perceived value, hard to make it work unless mass produced.
I'd say the main advantage of steel for a small brand is bikes lasting well/longer in general and the potential ride quality - both things appealing to the buyer paying a bit more for what smaller brands make over here or in the EU, with a view to keeping the bike longer. I think it's about a longer-term subjective purchase decision Vs the mass market Al bike being a shorter-term more objective buy.
Not intending to get into a what material is best debate as there's no answer, just saying that steel has fans and mass production manufacturers have left that door open.
Not anymore, Ratio, in the lakes, are working on one (if not released already)
Somebody has been working on rear mechs for the thirty odd years I've been using Shimano or SRAM. I've been holding my breath for so long...
Aaand Breathe
I recently bought a made in Sussex gravel/ allroad/ big-tyred-road type bike thing from Enigma and it is by some margin the nicest riding frame I've ever owned, and I've ridden a few from the best of the usual suspects. A big part if that decision was to have something as durable as possible and made locally to lower its environmental impact, and also to support domestic manufacturing... but it's also possible to get something made just the way you want it and a mm perfect fit as long as you know what you want - which is a different and better proposition to yet another disposable toxic jellymould plopped out and shipped from the other end of the planet...
it's also possible to get something made just the way you want it and a mm perfect fit as long as you know what you want - which is a different and better proposition to yet another disposable toxic jellymould plopped out and shipped from the other end of the planet...
Custom far eastern Ti is also a thing.
Are Starling a still a British brand after this week's news? Sounds like more of their product now comes from overseas than anywhere else.
Not anymore, Ratio, in the lakes, are working on one (if not released already)
Somebody has been working on rear mechs for the thirty odd years I've been using Shimano or SRAM. I've been holding my breath for so long...
Aaand Breathe
That looks good, and the Ratio parts I've bought have all been really good quality
They're in the same strange space as Madone though - asking £350 for a cable mech from a relatively unknown brand, when SRAM stuff is cheaper, lighter and as fas as the transmission stuff goes - all the spares are available too. Not sure what their USP is now
This whole thread is about the USP of being British, though we've not really come to any agreement on what that actually means.
How many of these bikes are actually made in the UK? I imagine there are very few components on any of them that weren't brought in from overseas..(ie Saracen, Cotic, Deviate all make frames overseas)
Cotic full suss frames are made in Scotland, Solaris in Czechia, Cascade in Portugal now, the BFE and Escapade are still made in Taiwan I think.
They're in the same strange space as Madone though - asking £350 for a cable mech from a relatively unknown brand, when SRAM stuff is cheaper, lighter and as fas as the transmission stuff goes - all the spares are available too. Not sure what their USP is now
Most reviews on AXS/Di2 are always full of comments saying we aren't going to have high end cable mechs ....
This whole thread is about the USP of being British, though we've not really come to any agreement on what that actually means.
OP clearly meant UK-owned brands, and that's what we've all been talking about.
Where the frames are manufactured is a nuance to this, which has also been explored in detail.
Cotic full suss frames are made in Scotland, Solaris in Czechia, Cascade in Portugal now, the BFE and Escapade are still made in Taiwan I think.
Rocket Ebike is the one current frame completely made in the UK. Swingarm, rocker and fittings in England. Front triangle, motor cage and seat stays in Scotland.
Full sus frames, the front is made in Scotland, the rear in Taiwan.
There were Escapades fully made in the UK as well (all sold for now).