Laps and Loops: Is It Time To Rethink Trail Centre Designs?

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Dave Evans from Bike Corris has previously written extensively on ‘wild trails’ in Wales – it’s all well worth reading, and his latest paper is no different. ‘Evolving The Trail Centre – Lessons From Wild Trails‘ looks at the difference between trail centre designs and what people build when left to their own devices in the woods. I think it’s excellent, and provides a structured and illustrated argument that makes so much sense that you’ll surely think it’s so obvious, why hasn’t anyone done this before? You should really go and read the paper. I’m only going to summarise it...
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Hannah Dobson

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I came to Singletrack having decided there must be more to life than meetings. I like all bikes, but especially unusual ones. More than bikes, I like what bikes do. I think that they link people and places; that cycling creates a connection between us and our environment; bikes create communities; deliver freedom; bring joy; and improve fitness. They're environmentally friendly and create friendly environments. I try to write about all these things in the hope that others might discover the joy of bikes too.

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  • This topic has 60 replies, 37 voices, and was last updated 3 months ago by spew.
Viewing 20 posts - 41 through 60 (of 60 total)
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  • Laps and Loops: Is It Time To Rethink Trail Centre Designs?
  • thisisnotaspoon
    Full Member

    Also nonsense. Wtf is interesting about the llandegla climb? There’s no technical interest in it whatsoever.

    I quite enjoy it, it’s not technical, but it’s far from the worst trail center climb.

    Plenty do just point you up a straight 1in3 fireroad that’s a struggle in any gear.

    Llandegla – play on the skills park, ride up through the woods, forgettable bit over the top, rest of the loop is mostly downhill (in my memory anyway, physics says it can’t be). Contrast to the Black loops which seem to make the climbing as painfull as possible?

    Posted 3 months ago
    dc1988
    Full Member

    A technical climb can be fun but the majority of people ride an MTB to enjoy the downs more than the ups, I enjoy a technical climb but I wouldn’t want it at the Golfie as it would just tire me out and spoil the descents.

    I think a better idea is interesting singletrack climbs without needing to be technical (like Golspie has been mentioned).

    When it comes to trail centres, I think they are still good in principal but having more options that you can add/mix as you see fit would be better than one single loop. I know you can do this relatively easily at somewhere like Hamsterley (if you know the way round) but it’s not really possible at other trail centres.

    Posted 3 months ago
    kevog
    Free Member

    Is the extent of our vision for mountain biking really limited to scalextric tracks around conifer blocks?

    A sport disappearing up its own fundament by putting all its resources into trying to appeal to an ever smaller niche of enthusiast riders, thrill seekers and gravity junkies?

    F’king depressing if you ask me.

    Posted 3 months ago
    andeh
    Full Member

    F’king depressing if you ask me.

    There, there, it’s OK, nobody is going to make you ride them. Probably best for everyone if you don’t, tbf. 🙄

    Posted 3 months ago
    Northwind
    Full Member

    kevog
    Free Member

    Is the extent of our vision for mountain biking really limited to scalextric tracks around conifer blocks?

    The words “trail centre” are in the title.

    Posted 3 months ago
    LAT
    Full Member

    those mtbs are now designed around the LLS geometry that are awful to pedal on the afore mentioned “xc” routes”

    this i read this a lot in here and wonder if it’s an opinion born from experience or just something that’s repeated. i have a starling, so not a bike with extreme LLS geometry, but it is no bother on a pedal heavy xc ride.

    Has anyone noticed how “Enduro Trousers” have the same cut as old school Ronhill and evreyone is wearing bumbags?

    perfect analogy for your post, but they are called “trail pants” and “hip packs”. but seriously, i’d worry about what people may want in 5 years in 5 years. it will be interesting to see what the rise of e-bikes does to the desire for purpose built big loops.

    as andeh says, the trail centre loop is a uniquely british thing and i wonder it they came about as a result of mountain biking having traditionally been about plotting a circular route on a map then following it?

    that and these trails being built with public funds, rather than by volunteers who are making the most of what already exists.

    i may be wrong, but didn’t “laps” originate in north america, where there is very little in the way of bridal ways, footpaths and established ancient byways that exist in europe?

    it’s worth remembering that even though laps are accessed using existing mining or forestry roads, they can still feature climbs, traverses and undulations.

    A sport disappearing up its own fundament by putting all its resources into trying to appeal to an ever smaller niche of enthusiast riders, thrill seekers and gravity junkies?

    the bridalways and o/s maps will still exist if you don’t want to ride these types of trails.

    another excellent discussion about mountain biking on singletrackworld in under a week. great stuff.

    Posted 3 months ago
    ayjaydoubleyou
    Full Member

    i may be wrong, but didn’t “laps” originate in north america, where there is very little in the way of bridal ways, footpaths and established ancient byways that exist in europe

    I don’t claim to be an expert but I would say the opposite- Americans having marked recreational trails (possibly shared use) that are either loops or out and backs

    The British Columbia and Bellingham model seems to be an anomaly over there not the norm.

    Posted 3 months ago
    nickc
    Full Member

    2 – Are you seriously suggesting that we should design bikes that are harder to ride in order to make boring trails more interesting?

    You are aware no doubt that there’s a whole category of bikes that are currently wildly popular for exactly this reason?

    Posted 3 months ago
    Mugboo
    Full Member

    There is no doubt that e-bikes are changing things. Last time I rode at GT there were lots of steep shortcuts which looked doable with a motor (or are these from night riders descending the climbs?)

    Maybe its an age thing (or learned behaviour) but I can only climb the same hill so many times, whether thats riding or pushing before I’m bored and ready to move on. The Golfie trails are amazing but if I had to constantly ride up the same way I would definately need an e-bike to dispatch it quicker.

    Like the rider above, I too have enjoyed Hammers by mixing up the trail centre with off-piste. Same goes for Dalby and Glentress. Maybe there is a simple AND cheap answer here, get the FE and builders in a room and plan out new handbuilt sections properly so that they work together as loops moving forward.
    I think GT has done this in places?

    The other issue I have with our trail centre network is that the blues are an afterthought. GT shows what is possible but most are just exceedingly dull, even for kids. Kids actually like skills parks where they can try different features but then you have a choice of boring blue or out of their depth red.
    Again, GT is the exception and shows just what is possible.

    One thing I don’t get, is when somewhere like Gisburn or Dalby post up that they have returned a section to its original or better than state, and then get lots of grief for sanitising it. Due to the proliferation of wild trails these days, there is no shortage of technical difficulty if thats what you are looking for. The original trail centre loops were (sometimes confusedly) designed to an agreed standard which needs to be kept up to stay the right side of being sued.
    As all this is done with signage, then it seems possible to have a further harder grade for handbuilt trails to protect the landowner.

    How is the landowner dealing with this at the Golfie?

    Posted 3 months ago
    weeksy
    Full Member

    Is the extent of our vision for mountain biking really limited to scalextric tracks around conifer blocks?

    But the other riding hasn’t changed or gone away, your new places are exactly that, new. Your old school riding still exists, cheeky trails, tricky XC, gravel, bimbles.. they’re all still there.

    With technology, bikes, geometry, weights, suspension though, the focus is moving more towards trail centers for many… but that’s their (and my) choice. The rest, well it’s still available.

    Posted 3 months ago
    Mugboo
    Full Member

    We had a family day at Stiniog on a typical dry, sunny Welsh day, which we all enjoyed. On the uplift bus, nebbing into conversations, it became clear that some riders almost exclusively ride uplifts these days. So for some riders, riding has changed completely, or they have just grown up riding these newer places.

    Posted 3 months ago
    LAT
    Full Member

    I don’t claim to be an expert but I would say the opposite- Americans having marked recreational trails (possibly shared use) that are either loops or out and backs

    The British Columbia and Bellingham model seems to be an anomaly over there not the norm.

    as i was typing, i was thinking of the places i’d been that had loops, but stuck to my guns!

    currently living in an area that lacks loops, or even out and backs, i do miss a circular ride.

    Posted 3 months ago
    ayjaydoubleyou
    Full Member

    On the uplift bus, nebbing into conversations, it became clear that some riders almost exclusively ride uplifts these days.

    These people have always existed I think – I’ve certainly met a few in Morzine.

    Not too long ago you had the choice of a DH bike (which needed assistance or walking to ascend) or an XC bike that was, well, a bit useless downhill – short, steep, arse up, tyres that disintergrated.
    Some people had both, certainly, but others fell strictly into one camp or the other.

    These days, a nice allrounder trail bike is perfectly adequate for Stiniog with a rider of average ability and bravery, so you’re actually getting the chance to meet and mingle with these people.

    Posted 3 months ago
    andeh
    Full Member

    A lot of the guys I grew up riding with were through and through DH riders so we’d go to places which, actually now that I think about it, were more alpine style. Back when DH was the cool thing, places like Hamsterly, Inners, Hopton, Ashton Hill, Foel, Style Cop, Wharncliffe, etc etc were pretty much exactly that, some tracks and a push up, maybe a sketchy uplift van. Even our local mound was just that. Trail centres existed, and in pretty much the exact same format as they do now, but my mates wouldn’t ride them because their bikes were daft, so we’d session tracks, and try stuff out, and I suppose progress. I don’t ever recall being knackered, but I recall trying stuff and having fun.

    Modern trail/enduro bikes are great, so you can do an uplift or a trail centre or a pub ride without carting around your 50lb DH bike. It’s pretty rare to see full DH bikes these days, you’ve got to really commit to being overbiked and slow 90% of the time to justify it. So everyone is on bikes they can pedal.

    I think where I’m going with this is that with the advent of true do-it-all bikes, messing about in the woods, pushing up (anyone can do that), maybe doesn’t happen so much, so new riders end up on big long rides with their mates, tired and out of their depth. If you’re guiding a group, which is kind of the focus of the report, maybe they should be visiting a different venue, because they do exist, rather than attempting to rework the hugely successful network of trail centres. Bikepark Wales screams as the ideal venue for this, as it’s essentially just trail centre grade trails but with a van.

    Posted 3 months ago
    Northwind
    Full Member

    Mugboo
    Full Member

    Like the rider above, I too have enjoyed Hammers by mixing up the trail centre with off-piste. Same goes for Dalby and Glentress. Maybe there is a simple AND cheap answer here, get the FE and builders in a room and plan out new handbuilt sections properly so that they work together as loops moving forward.
    I think GT has done this in places?

    So as far as I know there’s no official liaison between the FC and wild builders at GT. Some of the offpiste is fully official offpiste, 5 year plan and b side frinstance are FC designed and led trails built mostly by volunteers, as is some of the race stuff for the GT7. Some is a mix, like, I think zoom or bust partly existed as an old race line but the trail as it exists now is likewise FC built with the trailfairies. All these sessions had an FC ranger leading and digging. The line between offpiste and waymarked is really thin, there- 5yp could have become the main line, it’s just that we kinda made it a bit hard. Mild Peril is a little more “built” but is in the exact same space, so it is officially waymarked. Can’t recall if zoom or bust has a post now.

    Some is nudge-wink, like ponduro, which used the loosest definition of “formalising an existing line” imaginable. But I think the newer stuff like careless whisper is basically entirely unofficial, but condoned- and not just on a don’t ask don’t tell basis as demonstrated by the occasional interventions. They were built by skilled and forward-thinking builders who know what they can and can’t do, though, which is why they can coexist with the official trails- there’s some that crossed that line and got closed for how they interacted with existing trails.

    (there is I’m sure deniable/unofficial FC involvement, off-record conversations etc, but that’s a different thing)

    Trouble is, this is a really difficult model to export. Tweed Valley has a level of experienced and smart trailbuilders that isn’t common, and visible FC bike-specific staff, and still has the skeleton of the official trailfairies volunteer system even though that’s mothballed since covid, AND has the TVTA, and the racing, and it’s all come together largely organically. But it is brilliant, it’s succeeded in so many different ways. It’s also really fragile though.

    Posted 3 months ago
    colournoise
    Full Member

    Another informed and interesting post. Enjoying this thread.

    Posted 3 months ago
    DickBarton
    Full Member

    Someone further up has flagged that all the stuff that was being ridden is still there…and for loads of people it still gets used, but for the newer riders – either the youngsters or the older people who have more recently started mountain biking then the ‘older’ stuff is of very little interest.
    The idea of riding up a trail and that being challenging or having to ride to another location (connecting trails), etc. is completely alien to them.
    Yes, bikes have evolved but so has the actual rider…
    I’ve got a few work colleagues who are happy to drive for the 80 minutes it takes them to go to Glentress, they seem to do a ride from Buzzard’s to Spooky, down to cafe and fireroad back to car, then drive home – the idea of doing a local ride in the hills is completely alien to them and they refuse to come out and try the trails. This isn’t really new but they have kids who now ride but also only ride at Glentress – missing loads of great stuff locally.
    We seem to be evolving and revolving…the demands/requests will come from a vocal minority but that will drive what is created, nothing wrong with the older stuff but if it isn’t appealing then it won’t be requested.
    Being an antisocial kind of person nowadays I’m fine with quiet trails, but I do worry about the missed experiences for other riders if they aren’t willing/able to try other stuff.

    Posted 3 months ago
    scotroutes
    Full Member

    As I said in another thread, one of the many previous DMBinS stratgey documents included the concept of transition routes – basically better signposted “natural” trails, probably leading off from formal trail centres, that would encourage folk to explore a bit more widely. The hope would then be that those folk would then be more likely to go off exploring in less formal areas.

    It didn’t happen.

    On the other hand, there has been a marked increase in “named” long distance trails; Badger Divide, GNT, Capital Trail etc and quite a few new books too. These seem to mainly be pushing the adventure/gravel/bike-packing angle, though many of the routes would be ideal for mountain biking.

    Posted 3 months ago
    Mugboo
    Full Member

    Thanks, as always Northwind.

    Posted 3 months ago
    spew
    Full Member

    Great bit of thought provoking writing. The mix of replies and views shows it value. We may Nat all agree but it’s made may people think…

    I think we also have another demographic rapidly growing which is the old experienced rider who isn’t too fit might be carrying a few hip and knee replacements but still wants some fun and thrills. So making more choice and reducing the need for physical prowess would be good for more than just new bikers.

    Posted 3 months ago
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