- This topic has 214 replies, 44 voices, and was last updated 7 years ago by stgeorge.
-
Ze hav won ze war….. Really? he/she/it can do one….
-
hebdencyclistFree Member
Are you a student at Oxford? If not then you really don’t need to be outraged about anything.
If so, then you still don’t need to be outraged about anything. It won’t catch on. Speech cannot be policed in this way.
hebdencyclistFree MemberFound a [slightly] more reliable source for the story (my bold)
It’s only a leaflet, not a rule/law.
That’s the rule, which sounds reasonable to me.
CougarFull Memberthe move would prevent transgender students feeling offended
This isn’t a TG issue, it’s a non-binary issue, n’est-ce pas?
Every TG person I’ve ever known (and that’s probably more than you’d expect) identifies quite happily with their reassigned gender. The friends I have who would prefer neutral pronouns aren’t TG, but are variations on what you might call “gender fluid.”
Personally I think the principle’s sound but “ze” and variants are a crime against language. If I need a gender-neutral pronoun to talk about a person I’ll use “they / them.”
hebdencyclistFree MemberHow about this. If a person does not want to be identified as a gender then they can ask (quite reasonably in my view) to be referred to as “ze”.
For everyone else, as you were.
NorthwindFull MemberAlways suspicious when you get lots of “it’s being reported” and partial quotes but you don’t see the actual leaflet… The line that stuck out was “Deliberately using the wrong pronoun for a transgender person is an offence under Oxford’s behaviour code, the newspaper has said.”. Which is fair enough, that’s a shit way to talk to people. The rest, who knows.
Ze is a terrible sounding term though.
allthegearFree MemberThe trouble with this is that the newspaper needs to make it into something worth reporting. I’m sure the actual newsletter is far more constructive and worthwhile than is portrayed through the media. It’s their job.
It’s pretty easy – if you’re not sure of someone’s gender then (quietly) ask them. Then use it.
The vast majority of trans people totally understand that it’s sometimes difficult to remember – I get it wrong sometimes!
Mind you, having said all that, there’s some special snowflakes out there, believe me. 🙄
Rachel
StoatsbrotherFree MemberIt mentions a students union leaflet. Maybe things have changed… but… in my day…
At Oxford there is the Oxford Union where real debating is done and would-be politicians hang out, then there are the JCRs of the individual colleges where local college decisions and social stuff happens, then there are societies, political and otherwise, across the university…
And lastly there is the NUS about whom no one, except a very few disorientated muppets who think they are somewhere else, gives a shit. So if someone says it is from a “student union leaflet”, I suspect it is from some twit from the NUS, stranded in Corbyntopia….
hebdencyclistFree MemberThe trouble with this is that the newspaper needs to make it into something worth reporting. I’m sure the actual newsletter is far more constructive and worthwhile than is portrayed through the media. It’s their job.
It’s pretty easy – if you’re not sure of someone’s gender then (quietly) ask them. Then use it.
The vast majority of trans people totally understand that it’s sometimes difficult to remember – I get it wrong sometimes!
Mind you, having said all that, there’s some special snowflakes out there, believe me.
RachelOooh. Do you have a gender different from your birth gender? Because I’ve never knowingly met someone like that before, and I’m sure I’m not alone.
Would you consider doing an AMA on here? You would have to put up with loads of ignorant questions from people like me, but it would be educational and promote understanding.
jimjamFree Memberhebdencyclist
Are you a student at Oxford? If not then you really don’t need to be outraged about anything.
If so, then you still don’t need to be outraged about anything. It won’t catch on. Speech cannot be policed in this way.
I believe this is already part of employment discrimination law in New York and I believe it’s being considered in Canada, so speech actually can be policed in this way just so long as law makers continue to pander to this bullshit.
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5-oG0L6ZnU[/video]
hebdencyclistFree MemberI believe this is already part of employment discrimination law in New York
(my bold)
What is “this”?
Because I bet it’s not a ban on the use of pronouns “he” and “she”.
And I’m not watching a “it’s political correctness gorn maad” video.
chickenmanFull MemberMy we lad got into trouble at school with the Personal Pronoun Police in his year after he told them to “get the **** over ze self!” 😀
jimjamFree Memberhebdencyclist
I believe this is already part of employment discrimination law in New York
(my bold)
What is “this”?
Legislation stating that should an employee wish, an employer must refer to them by one of 70 or so new gender pronouns.
chickenmanFull MemberYeah, the PPP folk at his school were those that had already done the vegan and gluten free bit and were looking for a new righteous case to nail their colour to. Sorry, still find it funny…
hebdencyclistFree MemberLegislation stating that should an employee wish, an employer must refer to them by one of 70 or so new gender pronouns.
So nothing to do with the news story in this thread, then.
But seeing how you brought it up, what’s wrong with your boss referring to you by the gender with which you identify?
hebdencyclistFree MemberYeah, the PPP folk at his school were those that had already done the vegan and gluten free bit and were looking for a new righteous case to nail their colour to. Sorry, still find it funny…
You misunderstand. I was not posting in sympathy with your position.
There are no Personal Pronoun Police. I think that characterising the issue as such is overly-dismissive and reduces a complex and nuanced topic to the level of playground insults.
alpinFree MemberIf we can choose our own personal pronouns can I go with God…. No, no… Let’s make that Führer.
Oooh. Do you have a gender different from your birth gender? Because I’ve never knowingly met someone like that before, and I’m sure I’m not alone.
What not even in Hebdenbridge?
hebdencyclistFree MemberIf we can choose our own personal pronouns can I go with God…. No, no… Let’s make that Führer.
They are not pronouns.
BigJohnFull MemberTo be fair, calling a transgender person he or she is pretty offensive.
hebdencyclistFree MemberTo be fair, calling a transgender person he or she is pretty offensive.
How so? I’m no expert but I think most TG people want to be called he or she?
alpinFree MemberThey are not pronouns
Bugger….
Although much like “ze”…?
Can I go with frekbish?
How so? I’m no expert but I think most TG people want to be called he or she?
I imagine that is their ultimate aim….
allthegearFree MemberSome leaflets can (and do) come across as being terribly politically correct, I admit.
The trouble is, the people affected by gender identity issues are scared and need your understanding.
They are scared because the attitudes of many of the general public mean they get abuse on the street.
They are scared because sometimes, that abuse turn into violence. Being trans puts you into one of the groups most likely to suffer from violence in the UK.
They are scared because even many of the people that are supposed to help them, the medical profession, refuse to treat them, or stop their medication, or refuse to refer them to consultants.
They are scared because being trans puts you in a group of people 40% (yes, 40%) have attempted to take their own life at least once.Now, when you’re looking for a bit of a joke out of someone’s identity, or you think it unreasonable to be asked to use particular pronouns, or just can’t be bothered to change your own behaviour or outlook a tiny little bit, have a think about how hard it might be on the other side.
Rachel
epicycloFull MemberSurely it’s just plain good manners to use whatever gender specific term that a person identifies themselves as.
As for “ze”, there is a neutral word, it’s “it”.
orangespydermanFull MemberAnd I’m not watching a “it’s political correctness gorn maad” video.
A shame, because it’s interesting.
And I do believe that we’ll never fix prejudice based on
color/religion/belief/gender by stopping people talking about it. Quite the opposite. The video puts it better than I would, but I’m very happy to support anyone’s right to air their beliefs, including those that are not my own. Don’t ask me to share them, that’s all.squirrelkingFree MemberIf I need a gender-neutral pronoun to talk about a person I’ll use “they / them.”
Quite.
Is it safe to assume ‘ze’ comes from the same place as ‘Mx’? I have a friend who identifies as such, that’s their choice and I won’t disrespect that but it just seems like there is no niche too small these days and people need to find that very specific pigeon hole to crawl into.
Rachel; as always, nailed it.
bencooperFree Memberit just seems like there is no niche too small these days and people need to find that very specific pigeon hole to crawl into
Some people do – most people just want to have a quiet life with no fuss.
Focusing on whether some people want to be called “ze”, or whatever, is a distraction from the real issues of sex and gender.
jimjamFree Memberallthegear
Now, when you’re looking for a bit of a joke out of someone’s identity, or you think it unreasonable to be asked to use particular pronouns, or just can’t be bothered to change your own behaviour or outlook a tiny little bit, have a think about how hard it might be on the other side.
Rachel
I strongly disagree. This isn’t a case of a joke, or not being bothered, or disrespecting someone. If a man want’s to identify as a woman or vice versa, by all means. They have my support. But if they want to create legislation which makes it a legal requirement for me to use one of seventy odd made up words, or to make it “hate speech” to not use them is madness that is spectacularly backfiring against minority groups and has been identified as one of the major factors which persuaded people to vote Trump.
She, he or it are not a person’s identity, nor are they a mark of respect. They are basic perfunctory terms used to navigate through life.
Identity is something that requires mutual agreement. Just because I decide I am royalty doesn’t mean I can force strangers to curtsy, and similarly just because someone wants to be he today, she tomorrow and and ze on Thursday, shouldn’t mean it’s hate speech or discrimination to not engage in their game.
allthegearFree Memberjust because someone wants to be he today, she tomorrow and and ze on Thursday, shouldn’t mean it’s hate speech or discrimination to not engage in their game.
I’ve had one friend assaulted in London and another try to take their own life so far in 2016. It’s not a game. It’s life or death to many.
Rachel
StoatsbrotherFree MemberDealing with some people navigating along the gender and personal pronoun changing process, and having seen some of the devastating things that can happen to them, I have sympathy with Rachel’s viewpoint, I also think a blanket change in everyone’s personal pronoun would be strongly counterproductive to the cause of gender identity issues.
I think we all – in general – need to get better at asking and accepting what people’s preferred personal pronoun is, and they perhaps, sometimes need to get better at articulating it, and should be allowed to do so without fear and prejudice.
whitestoneFree MemberI think the key word in the leaflet is “deliberately”. I might inadvertently use the wrong pronoun but once corrected I’ll use whatever the individual is happiest with.
I’ve several transgender friends and acquaintances, have worked with several more and know of quite a few others. I don’t live in or near some Bohemian style community either so no doubt most of us will know one or more transgender individuals.
jimjamFree Memberallthegear
I’ve had one friend assaulted in London and another try to take their own life so far in 2016. It’s not a game. It’s life or death to many.
Rachel
You misunderstand me. I’m not referring to an individual’s gender as a game, I’m referring to the game of gender identity politics that’s being played out among people who are trying to demonise those who don’t want to use 30 new genders or 70 new pronouns, which of course, change on a daily basis according to the individual’s mood that day.
NorthwindFull Memberjimjam – Member
I strongly disagree. This isn’t a case of a joke, or not being bothered, or disrespecting someone. If a man want’s to identify as a woman or vice versa, by all means. They have my support. But if they want to create legislation which makes it a legal requirement for me to use one of seventy odd made up words, or to make it “hate speech” to not use them is madness that is spectacularly backfiring against minority groups and has been identified as one of the major factors which persuaded people to vote Trump.
You started saying “this isn’t a case of a joke”, then threw out a long list of other things that it’s also not a case of. Weird really. Why don’t we stick with what it’s actually a case of? Which is, the student body trying to do something to protect students from people intentionally abusing gender terms to cause offence.
jimjam – Member
They are basic perfunctory terms used to navigate through life.
And sometimes they’re wrong, and sometimes they’re intentionally used as weapons, which is what this is all about. As you say, it’s basic, so let’s get the basics right.
bikebouyFree Member“Ze” sounds Nazi to me.
But ancient collages like this are full of extreme politics.
So, why are you surprised this has happened exactly..
jimjamFree MemberNorthwind
You started saying “this isn’t a case of a joke”, then threw out a long list of other things that it’s also not a case of. Weird really.
In reference to allthegear’s inference that some were making a joke of the issue.
As you say, it’s basic, so let’s get the basics right.
By creating 100 new basics?
kimbersFull MemberLet’s get riled up about something that’s nothing to do with us !!!!
Child-line receiving 8 calls a day about gender issues according to the news today
jimjamFree Memberkimbers
Let’s get riled up about something that’s nothing to do with us !!!!Ah yeah, let’s never discuss anything unless it directly effects.
eat_the_puddingFree MemberI respect peoples views about their own sex and sexuality. Its frankly none of my business.
Excessive interest about what others do in their own time with other consenting adults is the root of all kinds of evil.
So maybe on that basis the perfect future would be no-one giving a crap about anyone elses identity at all?
That being the case, is 70 (or n plus 1) pronouns a step forward or a step back?
Maybe choosing a single neutral pronoun would be the best way forward?
To put it another way, does setting up a system of 70 pigeon holes really help if the consequences of choosing from 2 or 3 and getting it wrong are so potentially serious?
NorthwindFull Memberjimjam – Member
By creating 100 new basics?
Oh it’s 100 now? This is escalating quickly. WHERE WILL IT END?!??
The topic ‘Ze hav won ze war….. Really? he/she/it can do one….’ is closed to new replies.